In Episode 221 of Mother Earth News and Friends, we’re wondering, do pigeons make good pets? For thousands of years, pigeons have been a companion to humans, and today, many people raise them and show them off in shows around the world. In this episode, John DeCarlo and Tim Heidrich of the National Pigeon Association discuss keeping pigeons, why raise pigeons, building a pigeon loft, what do you feed pigeons, and more. Maybe pigeon-keeping is for you!
Scroll down for our episode transcript, and scroll to the bottom for our show-note resources!
Do Pigeons Make Good Pets Transcript
Kenny Coogan: [00:00:00] I’ve written a lot of articles about fancy pigeons for Backyard Poultry Magazine, our sister publication, and growing up I had tumblers and homing pigeons and pouter pigeons and runt pigeons and a lot of dove species. So, John and Tim, I know this answer, but can you share it for the listeners: do pigeons make good pets?
John DeCarlo: They can make very good pets. Especially if you hand feed them.
Tim Heidrich: I know in our organization, there are people that, raise them just kind of as a companion animal. Most of the people in our group have you know, a number of pigeons that they raise for showing purposes and, and things like that, and just for their own enjoyment, having them in their backyard, and they’ll have many of them. But I’ve known some people that have just, just one or two, in a cage in their house or something like that.
Jessica Anderson: Welcome to the Mother Earth News and Friends podcast. At Mother Earth News for 50 years and counting, we’ve been [00:01:00] dedicated to conserving the planet’s natural resources while helping you conserve your financial resources. In this podcast, we host conversations with experts in the fields of sustainability, homesteading, natural health, and more to share all about how you can live well wherever you are in a way that values both people and our Mother Earth.
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[00:01:47] Do Pigeons Make Good Pets?
Kenny Coogan: Good day, everyone. I am Kenny Coogan, and joining me today is President of the National Pigeon Association, John DeCarlo, and Secretary of the Association, [00:02:00] Tim Heidrich. And today, we are going to be talking about raising pigeons, and if pigeons make good pets.
Welcome to the podcast, John and Tim.
John DeCarlo: Thank you.
Tim Heidrich: Hello. Thank you.
Kenny Coogan: I’ve written a lot of articles about fancy pigeons for Backyard Poultry Magazine, our sister publication, and growing up I had tumblers and homing pigeons and pouter pigeons and runt pigeons and a lot of dove species. So, John and Tim, I know this answer but can you share it for the listeners: do pigeons make good pets?
John DeCarlo: This is John. They can make very good pets. Especially if you hand feed them. A lot of breeds need to be hand fed in order to raise them because they have shorter beaks or shorter faces. But yes, pigeons can make good pets.
Tim Heidrich: This is Tim. Yeah, they make good pets. There’s a lot of pigeons that you can easily tame to be hand fed. And I know in our [00:03:00] organization, there are people that raise them just kind of as a companion animal. Most of the people in our group have you know, a number of pigeons that they raise for showing purposes and, and things like that, and just for their own enjoyment, having them in their backyard, and they’ll have many of them.
But I’ve known some people that have just, just one or two, in a cage in their house or something like that.
[00:03:23] Why Raise Pigeons?
Kenny Coogan: The National Pigeon Association is really for fancy pigeons, and growing up, we had neighbors that were from Germany, from the Second World War, and they still had pigeons and they talked about, they had to eat squab during the war.
So, I guess they could be a protein source, but I know you just mentioned showing, companionship, pets. Can you think of any other reasons why people raise pigeons? Because a lot of the listeners already have chickens and ducks that they see serve a purpose.
John DeCarlo: I think most people raise [00:04:00] pigeons for the same reason that they raised a lot of other poultry or birds. Some like to show them, some like to just have them in their backyard. You can eat them. A lot of people like to race them in competition. A lot of people also enter rolling competitions where, with Birmingham Rollers, where the birds roll up in the air. Our organization, the NPA, is mainly for show pigeons, but we do get racing pigeons and other utility or squabbing pigeons, also rolling pigeons, at our shows. That’s not their main competition, but there’s all different types of pigeons. So it’s not, it’s not just one type, you know, there’s so many different types and different uses or ways to enjoy them.
Tim Heidrich: There’s a lot of people too, that writes them just for their own enjoyment in their backyard. Pigeons are real interactive with each other ,unlike some other animals, and they’re constantly reproducing young birds. And so it’s, [00:05:00] it’s like, there’s always something going on in the loft that’s interesting. A lot of people enjoy that aspect of it. There’s also a big aspect of people breeding for various colors and patterns and things like that on the birds. There’s like whole communities of pigeon breeders that are interested in the genetics of pigeons and trying to put different colors and new colors and markings on various breeds.
Oftentimes they’re not interested in showing as much as they are in just the aspect of the challenge of trying to put this new color or pattern on an existing breed, and then trying to develop it into a show quality type of bird. And to them, that’s the whole enjoyment of the hobby.
[00:05:46] Breeds of Pigeons
Kenny Coogan: I remember reading that Charles Darwin, or during Charles Darwin’s time, Frillback pigeons, the ones that have these beautiful curly feathers on their backs, either only females or only males [00:06:00] had that trait during his time, and now, of course, it’s a breed and both sexes have it.
John, I know it’s going to be hard, but can you give me three of your favorite breeds, and can you describe them for the .Listener?
John DeCarlo: Sure I’ll start with African owls, which are a smaller bird, very short beak. Most of the young you’ll have to hand feed it because if you need foster parents at a minimum, and most of the time those won’t do the job. So they have a head almost like a golf ball, or should look like a golf ball, that would be the, that’d be the perfect. They have a slight frill in the front of their chest.
Next, I would go with the Chinese Owl, which is another owl breed, a little bit longer beak, much easier to raise than the African Owl. And its main attribute are the amount of frilled feathers it has on its chest, also the pants and collar, another smaller breed.
Third, I would go with English [00:07:00] Trumpeters. That’s quite a fancy breed. They have a crest on their head. They have large feathers on their feet called “muffs.” They’re pretty wide bodied birds, short. Also fairly easy to breed. So those would be the three I could give you.
Kenny Coogan: Tim, do you have an additional two or three breeds that are your favorite?
Tim Heidrich: Well, John and I have known each other for many, many years. We first really got acquainted with our interest in African Owls. And both of us are, are national breeders of African Owls.
A couple of the additional ones that I breed that I like a lot are German Modenas, which there’s various types of Modenas . In this country, they’re kind of a larger, heavyset breed, but the German Modenas are a more kind of an elegant, long legged, long necked breed. They’re not really big maybe about 10 inches tall, but they look very slender and, and elegant. I’ve always liked those. I also breed in [00:08:00] a small breed called the Ancient Tumblers, which I believe also from Germany originally. They have a really short beak, and they can either have a crest on the back of their head or or come without a crest. But the feet are always what they call “grouse legged,” which means they have feathers that come down and cover the toes, but they don’t extend out like the, some of the breeds, like the English Trumpeters do. And that’s a small show breed.
And then I also breed Polish Barbs. That’s kind of a newer breed that I’ve started with. It’s not a new breed, but it’s new for me. And Barbs are a really old, old breed. And in Poland, they were bred to a smaller size. But the distinguishing feature of them is they have very large eye ceres that are around the eyes, to where if you look at the front of the head, the ideal bird, and this develops over [00:09:00] the course of two or three years time, it’s supposed to look like the old spool of thread would look, where you have the front of the head and then these two ends that kind of protrude up and out even over the top and over the front of the head that are the large eye ceres around the eyes. They have English Barbs, which are larger, but I, I breed the Polish Barbs, which are a , smaller version of that.
[00:09:26] Is there a Pigeon Standard of Perfection?
Kenny Coogan: Listeners are familiar with the American Poultry Association American Standard of Perfection that list the hundreds of standard chicken breeds, and then they could go through that and see what people should be breeding for, but also they could be seeing, what they could be adding to their homestead. Is there an equivalent to one master book that lists all the pigeon breeds?
John DeCarlo: Yes, in fact, the NPA has put out a Standard of Perfection of all the breeds for many years. And it’s, it’s funny you bring that [00:10:00] up now. Our newest one just came out in the last couple of months. And it is the first one that’s in full color. It’s the largest one that we’ve ever had.
Tim Heidrich: I think there’s close to 300 breeds in it. And it’s a little over 600 pages.
Kenny Coogan: Do you know what the most recent pigeon breed is? Or are all of these pigeon breeds from, hundreds of years ago? Or has there been pigeon breeds that have just developed in the past 10 years, 20 years?
John DeCarlo: There have been breeds developed in the last 50 years, very few recently. But there’s constantly someone working on a new breed, which is one of the beauties of breeding pigeons, or any other bird for that matter. But as far as new breeds, not nothing in the last 10 years that, that I’m aware of.
Tim Heidrich: There’s a lot that have been added to our book this time though, because there have been a lot of breeds that we haven’t been aware of, really, or haven’t been in the United States that are now being imported [00:11:00] from Eastern Europe, from Russia, and from the Middle East.
So, we’ve added a number of breeds from the Middle East to this book, and there’s a lot of breeds in those countries in the, in the Far East , and Asia that we still don’t even have in our book that aren’t, aren’t really seen in the United States.
[00:11:19] How to Build a Pigeon Loft
Kenny Coogan: So earlier you mentioned that pigeons like to live communally, and keeping pigeons is a lot of fun. Can you talk a little bit about how to build a pigeon loft?
John DeCarlo: Each breed is different. I breed most of my pigeons individually, where a lot of their individual pens are either 4 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot high. I have some that are 36 inches by 30 inches that are 3 foot high. Depends on the breed. A lot of pigeons are bred communally also, and they do just fine that way too. The biggest issue would be overcrowding. You know, that there’s an old saying that each bird should have 3 feet of space on the floor. So, Tim [00:12:00] is more of a builder than I am. He could probably add to that.
Tim Heidrich: My first pigeon loft was a little small loft, looked, looked sort of like a rabbit hutch. Was probably 10 years old, had you know, it was up on legs, about 3 feet tall off the ground, and I think that one had a wooden floor, but a lot of them like that will have wire floors. And it was about 2 feet tall by about 4 feet long and 2 feet wide. That’s a good size for a pair of pigeons. If you want to give them space to fly, what I did later with that little small loft was I added a fly pen that was about 6 or 8 feet long and maybe 6 feet tall and 4 or 5 feet wide, about the width of the pen itself. And just attach that to the pen. And then I would let the birds out into that. It was, it was all wire and had a, had a dirt floor, you know, and had grass and everything on the, on the ground. And I would let my pigeons out into that.
But pigeon lofts can be anything as [00:13:00] small as that up to, Johnny and I both breed a lot of birds. My pigeon loft now is, probably 60 feet long by about 15 to 16 feet wide. I’m sure John has at least that much, maybe more space, than I do in his various lofts.
When you’re breeding for showing on a national scale or if you’re racing against national competition and things like that, a lot of people breed more pigeons that way, because it oftentimes it takes more birds to breed really, really top quality ones. It’s kind of an illness, you know, you get into it and then you just want more and more.
Kenny Coogan: I remember my neighbor, if they wanted a pair to breed, they would put them together for a while, but then they could still reintroduce them to the main flock and then they would still stick together. You’re saying you’re breeding for specific colors or traits, and people might get [00:14:00] scared if they’re releasing all the birds together, that they’re going to be mating with anyone.
Tim Heidrich: Easy way for somebody to get started if they wanted a pigeon loft is you have a lot of these businesses now that build these little backyard sheds. These little wooden backyard sheds, and they’re very attractive and they have wooden floors, and, you could easily add a little sun porch or a fly pen for the birds to get out and get some sun or some exercise. And they come in all kinds of sizes, depending on how many birds you wanted to keep or what your budget was. That’s, that’s a real quick, easy way to get a pigeon loft that’s, that’s good for the birds, keeps them out of drafts and out of cold weather and things like that.
[00:14:43] What Do You Feed Pigeons?
Kenny Coogan: A couple of years ago, I was on a walk around my neighborhood and I saw 50 homing pigeons, flying together, circling, and I just followed them. And just a couple of blocks away from my house, I saw them all coming in to [00:15:00] their loft, and I kind of just peeked over the fence. And I talked to the guy, and unfortunately he did not have any for sale. He said he was breeding them all and he wasn’t ready to, get rid of the slow ones yet.
When ‘you talk about the pigeon loft or different types of housing, what is your preferred litter? Are you using shavings or gravel or kitty litter?
John DeCarlo: I don’t use any litter. I just have my loft scraped once a week. But a lot of people use just the dry litter, the the droppings that they dry up, that can also be some of the best. Some breeds though do need shavings, you know, it depends on the breed. Breeds with large feathers on their feet, a lot of those type of breeds, people use shavings. Or if you’re in a wet climate, sometimes it’s better to use shavings or also wire floor. A lot of my pens have a wire floor, which is also really, really healthy for them. Just [00:16:00] depends on your climate and the breed.
Tim Heidrich: I’ve heard people use a sand and corn cob litter, things like that. Depends on how much you want to spend on those kinds of things. My particular loft, I like to have less dust in my lofts and so I built all the pens with wooden floors, but it’s out of like decking wood, where there’s like a quarter inch to a three eighths inch gap between every board. So, the droppings dry and then just kind of turn into powder and then they just blow out through those gaps in the floor and keeps it pretty clean that way.
Kenny Coogan: So at the feed stores, you can find bags of pigeon food for sale. And I know one difference is that some pigeon feed has corn, some of it doesn’t. How would somebody know based on the pigeon breed, what type of pigeon food to buy?
John DeCarlo: That, that can differ by breed and also the time of year. For example, people who are [00:17:00] flying pigeons, they, they have a whole different regimen that their birds are on. Typically during the breeding season, you’d want a higher protein for them to be able to rear the young. And also some breeds have a hard time with the larger peas, the larger corn, you’d have to substitute popcorn, but fortunately, there’s quite a few different companies out there that make a different selection of mixes that cater to all those needs.
Kenny Coogan: For pigeon breeding, do you have like a little door with a hole in it, and then do you have a nest box, or do you just give them a bowl? I mean, people see wild pigeons everywhere. and they assume that they’re pretty easy to breed.
Tim Heidrich: They are pretty easy to breed. And again, some of that depends on the breed, what kind of nesting arrangement you want to make for them. Some of it depends on the loft that you have, the kind of setup that you have. I have several different things in my loft. Personally, I have some boxes that I kind of designed myself that hang on the [00:18:00] wall. It’s sort of like a V shape that comes off the wall, and it holds wood chips in it, and the birds will fly up and nest in those things. I use those because they’re easy to take back off the wall in the off season. I can take them off the wall and then put perches in those places so that they’re not breeding all year long.
And then I have some other individual pens where I breed like my African Owls. I have these clay bowls that I found at a, a garden center one time. There’s similar ones that are sold at a pigeon supply outlets that you can find online, and they’re like maybe 3 inches deep and maybe 7 or 8 inches across in diameter. And those work for most breeds. It’s good to put something soft in the bottom of those and then give them like some pine straw or straw that they can make their nest out of. But you know, if you have some larger [00:19:00] breeds like some of the Kings and Runts and things like that, or Trumpeters, you might need a larger nest bowl than that. So some guys make like a nesting area that’s out of like 1 by 4s. It’d be like three and a half inches tall and make a square that’s about 12 inches square. And they’ll let the birds put their nest material in that and nest in those kind of things.
Some people use plastic buckets. I’ve seen them cut off plastic buckets and let them use that for a bowl, or dog dish bowls. Things like that. Something that’ll keep the eggs and the babies down in this little circular area where they won’t fall out and get cold and get out from under the hen.
Kenny Coogan: If listeners are not familiar with what a baby pigeon looks like, or a pigeon squab, they should Google that because they’re quite different than a baby chick or duckling.
We’re going to take a quick break to [00:20:00] hear a word from our sponsor, and when we return, we’re going to talk about the National Pigeon Association.
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[00:20:38] History of Pigeon-Raising
Kenny Coogan: We’re back with the President of the National Pigeon Association, John DeCarlo, and Secretary of the Association, Tim Heidrich. Now, founded in 1920, the National Pigeon Association is an all breeds pigeon club with an international membership. And your motto is [00:21:00] “the backyard hobby of yesterday and today.” Can you guys give us some examples of how long people have been breeding and raising pigeons? Are there famous people you can think of who have raised pigeons?
John DeCarlo: The hobby is thousands of years old. One of the first domesticated animals was a pigeon long before the dog and other domestic animals. Most of the time when you go to a pigeon show, you’re going to see quite a few guys who have had them for a long time. A lot of us are second, third generation pigeon fanciers. Usually it’s something passed down by a family member, neighbor. But once, once it’s in your blood, it’s, it’s extremely hard to get out.
Tim Heidrich: I talked to a gentleman just this morning. This, this guy called in and ordered some more leg bands for his birds. He’d been breeding pigeons since he was nine years old and he was 85. So he’s had them for a long, long time. They’ve been around for many, many years. There [00:22:00] are some famous people that have had them. In African Owls, back in the 1950s and 60s, there was a guy named Mike Conway, and he was the mayor of St. Louis at that time, and he was involved in raising pigeons.
Mike Tyson is one of the most famous ones who really enjoys pigeons. I know Jimmy Smits, he was on several different TV shows, an actor. He had pigeons and liked them. And, and uh, there was uh, actor back in the, The King and I with an actor named Yul Brynner, who was famous actor back in the 60s and 70s, and he raised pigeons as well.
So there’ve been some famous people that, that have them. It’s interesting when you go to a pigeon show, there’s people from every economic background at the show. You’ll see people from very wealthy backgrounds all the way down to people that are from [00:23:00] much more humble beginnings. And they just come together and interact with each other over their common love of pigeons. And it’s interesting how it just breaks down a lot of barriers.
[00:23:13] What Happens at a Pigeon Show?
Kenny Coogan: In 2025, January 15th through the 18th, you will have the Grand National Pigeon Show in Oklahoma City. John, can you tell us what people can expect when they go to a pigeon show?
John DeCarlo: At the grand national, which is usually the last show of the year, the major pigeon show before the breeding season starts for everyone. That is when the birds have finished molting, that’s why it takes place middle to end of January, to give everyone’s birds their best shot at being ready. This year, we would expect close to 6, 000 pigeons, probably 100 to 150 different breeds.
Now some breeds are more popular. There could be 300 to 400 of one breed. There could be many breeds where there’s one or two, the rarer [00:24:00] breeds, but there there will be close to 6000 pigeons. All the birds are individually cooped at the show with a card on the cage, which states the exhibitor, band number, color, and breed. And the birds then get carried up to be judged in a judging area somewhere else. Every breed’s different. Some judge them by color, some by their gender, by age.
So it will be a great show in Oklahoma City. There’s been many nationals in Oklahoma City before. It’s a central location, which we’re trying to gear more towards in order to give everyone a chance to drive due to air travel getting harder with live animals. So I would expect it to be quite a large show for America.
[00:24:40] Joining the National Pigeon Association
Kenny Coogan: And Tim, can you tell us why somebody should join your association? What are the benefits of being a member?
Tim Heidrich: Well, there’s, there’s several benefits. One of the, one of the main reasons just on a, on a larger scale, is just the fact that the National Pigeon Association, and there’s a couple of [00:25:00] national racing pigeon groups to o. These organizations are the voice for the fanciers in the country. When there are issues that come up in legislation or things like, it helps to be in a larger community where we can have a greater voice and making sure that the hobby is protected and people have the right to raise their birds and enjoy the hobby.
There’s several different benefits to being in the National Pigeon Association itself. One of the main benefits is we have an excellent magazine that we produce four times a year. We publish this magazine that’s called the Quarterly Review. It has about anywhere from 60 to 100 pages. Full color magazine with articles and things like that. And that comes with your membership to the NPA..
There’s also discounts on certain things, such as the book of standards [00:26:00] is cheaper for people who are members. The entries to the national show, it’s a dollar off per entry for NPA members versus non members. So it’s a nice large community of people that have a real common interest in promoting the hobby. And there’s some nice perks that go along with that.
Kenny Coogan: And if you can’t make the Grand National Pigeon Show in Oklahoma City in January, you can go to NPAUSA.com to see local pigeon shows as well.
And thank you so much, Tim and John, for our conversation today. It was great.
Tim Heidrich: You’re very welcome. Thank you for having us.
John DeCarlo: Thank you.
[00:26:43] Podcast Credits & Brinsea Ad
Jessica Anderson: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Mother Earth News and Friends. To listen to more podcasts and get connected on our social media, visit www.MotherEarthNews.com/Podcast. You can also email us at Podcast@OgdenPubs.Com with any [00:27:00] questions or suggestions. Our podcast production team includes Jessica Anderson, Kenny Coogan, and Alyssa warner.
Music for this episode is “Hustle” by Kevin MacLeod.
The Mother Earth News and Friends podcast is a production of Ogden Publications.
[00:27:14] Brinsea Post-Roll Ad
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Until next time, don’t forget to love your Mother. [00:28:00]
Meet Our Podcast Guests

John DeCarlo is the president of the National Pigeon Association.

Tim Heidrich is the secretary of the National Pigeon Association.
Additional Resources
National Pigeon Association
2025 NPA Grand National Show
Learn more about pigeons on our Backyard Poultry website
Our Podcast Team:
Jessica Anderson, Kenny Coogan, and Alyssa Warner
Music: “Hustle” by Kevin MacLeod
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