Read Pa Thao’s article on Maiv Flower Farm here.
Pa Thao: The STEM workshop I held with high school students, I was approached by the program director and she was like, “Hey, I really want my students to, learn about farming.”
[00:00:10] The push for our young people to really enter professional, fields means that less of our folks are, like, really getting into farming either for food or for business or whatnot.
[00:00:20] And she was like, “I want them to see how, farming is and how they can consider it as a career, right? To be a farmer. And how it is really healing and all of that.”
[00:00:31] Josh Wilder: Welcome to the Mother Earth News and Friends podcast at Mother Earth News. For 50 years and counting, we’ve been dedicated to conserving the planet’s natural resources while helping you conserve your financial resources in this podcast. We host conversations with experts in the fields of sustainability, homesteading, natural health, and more to share all about how you can live well wherever you are in a way that values both people and our Mother Earth.
[00:00:57] Hello, and [00:01:00] welcome to this edition of Mother Earth News and Friends. I’m Josh Wilder, and with me today, I have Pa Thao, a nonprofit leader, community organizer, and farmer. She was born in Ban Vinai, a refugee camp in northern Thailand, and resettled in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, at age 12. Her lived experience informs her work advancing equity, justice, and opportunity for underrepresented communities.
[00:01:21] And today, she’ll be reading her Maiv Flower Farm article about an intergenerational farm that fulfills a dream and transforming trauma into belonging. Thanks for being here today.
[00:01:32] Pa Thao: Yeah. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:35] Josh Wilder: I’ll have you read your article, and then I’ll come back in and answer some questions. Yeah.
[00:01:39] Pa Thao: Thank you.
[00:01:40] Josh Wilder: Thank you.
[00:15:47] Josh Wilder: Thank you for sharing that. That’s a really moving story, actually. You mentioned that your mom brings a lifetime of farming and survival. You’re bringing to the farm a desire for stability and a beautiful life.
[00:15:59] When [00:16:00] you try to navigate those two, between honoring her traditional Hmong farming and introducing modern strategies like agritourism how do you go about that?
[00:16:11] Pa Thao: Yeah. I think we’re still working through that, right? And I share this story all the time, because even though we’re on 20 acres, I think my mom’s mindset is still in that that really small acreage mindset.
[00:16:23] And so she wants to plant everything on, onto five acres, and she wants to grow in really tight rows. And that makes weeding really hard, right? That makes the paths really narrow for folks who walk. And if we’re welcoming folks onto the farm, we want them to have space to walk in between the rows of vegetables without, stepping on crops that we spent a lot of, time planting.
[00:16:48] And so I’ve asked her over the years to widen her planting rows. And I would go out there with her, I’ll stake it. I’ll be like, “Okay, Mom, we need we need five feet because you don’t wanna, you don’t wanna [00:17:00] weed in between the rows. And so I need five feet so I can take my lawnmower and go through and cut the weed and the grass in the middle so you don’t have to worry about weeding.”
[00:17:10] I’ll go to work, I’ll come back, and it’s three feet. Yeah. That doesn’t work because, my lawnmower is, what? A, a 50-inch ride-on lawnmower. They don’t make them any smaller than that. I think the smallest you can get is like a 45. But three feet is still too narrow for any lawn, any l- ride-on lawnmower to go through.
[00:17:30] And so those are the li- little things on the farm that we’re still working with even though it’s our fourth season. It’s just really hard to I think, get, to move away from a very survival mindset, right? To a mindset of abundance. And I’m working with her to really shift her towards that so we can have, so we can, not … So we can still honor the traditional Hmong agricultural practice that she’s learned her whole life, right? But do it in a way [00:18:00] that allowed us to work smarter and not harder and allow us to really create spaces where folks that visit the farm can also navigate without a lot of difficulties.
[00:18:11] And so w- we’re still going through every day, but I think she really enjoyed having people on the farm. Like I mentioned, Audra she … Her eyes light up every time someone came up to her when they visit and ask questions about the kind of flowers we have, or the kind of vegetables that we have.
[00:18:29] Josh Wilder: Yeah. That was it’s really touching d- what you mentioned about the pride on her face, and the joy. And and that comes from the vulnerability of allowing folks onto your farm and sharing that space with them. What’s a surprising thing you learned about the community or your own farm when you made that transition from farmers market to you pick visitors?
[00:18:50] Pa Thao: Yeah. My first surprise was really that people didn’t know where their food came from. I had this family that [00:19:00] came out on our first o- our first you pick, one of the first time that we had our fruit and vegetables, and they walked to our rows of Brussels sprouts. And so Brussels sprouts grows in a stalk, so it’s like maybe three, four feet high, and then the sprouts grows on the stalk.
[00:19:18] And they weren’t, they didn’t … They weren’t sure what it was, and I was out in the field walking around, helping guests was picking different vegetables and they asked me like, “What is this vegetables?” And I told them what it was, and they were like, they were very surprised that was how Brussels sprouts grew.
[00:19:36] And so I think, what really stood out for me and still surprise me is the disconnection, right? Between how our food is grown and and the, and just the local food system all together. And so that, that became a very pivotal point for me when I when I think about- expanding U-Picks or we’re thinking about offering tours in the farm.
[00:19:58] I’m like, I wanna [00:20:00] also educate people on how food is grown, right? And the importance of really making sure that we’re ta- taking good care of the soil and the environment around us so we can grow healthy, nutritious food for our families. And I tell my guests all the time too that I eat what I grow in the farm.
[00:20:16] And so I really gonna- and my kids, they’re out there, they’re picking vegetables with me. When guests are out there my, my baby, Estella, she loves picking vegetables for dinner. So every, in the summer when all the vegetables are ready to harvest, she’ll go out there with her little basket and she’ll pick beets, and she’ll pick lettuce and, grape peppers.
[00:20:36] And she’s “Mommy, make this for dinner.” So that’s the kind of feeling I want our guests to also feel and get when it comes to the farm, to pick their own flowers and vegetables. I want them to feel pride and see where their food comes from, right? And really taking something that they picked, that they can enjoy for dinner.
[00:20:56] Josh Wilder: Yeah. I think, obviously putting that work into [00:21:00] harvesting your food gives it that extra value that you appreciate- … and you remember and makes it an experience instead of, what food systems have become is, just a process.
[00:21:12] Pa Thao: It is. It is. And, with the way the the increasing cost of transportation with gas and everything, I think the importance of really supporting local farmers and small farms it’s so more important to me now than ever, right?
[00:21:27] To really understand where your food comes from to really get it locally so then you’re also lessening your footprint on, on, on the environment. Yeah.
[00:21:39] Josh Wilder: Now, when you were building the farm into what it is today, you detailed the significant structural barriers faced by refugee and immigrant families, like the traditional paperwork for USDA loans, for example.
[00:21:52] Do you have any specific advice for other marginalized farmers who are feeling hopeless currently navigating these federal systems? [00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Pa Thao: Yeah. I really encourage folks to seek out support from ag TA providers and agricultural, Based nonprofits or organizations. There’s so many people out there that wanna help and sometimes it’s just that we don’t know how to ask, or we don’t know who to go to, right?
[00:22:23] In Wisconsin, there is the Wisconsin Farmers Union that has not only helped with advocacy and policy advocacy at a state and federal level, but they help farmers access different grant programs and that kind of thing. And then there’s other smaller nonprofits too, obviously, like Fairshare and Brownsville that are really just focusing helping farmers get the information and accessing the programs that they need to be able to stay in the farming industry.
[00:22:52] So don’t be afraid to ask questions. I think if I lo- if I’ve had known what I know now, I would’ve started earlier, right? ‘Cause [00:23:00] I feel like when you are a refugee, an immigrant farmer it, it seems very lonely in that space to want to grow your operation more, ’cause you just don’t know who you can ask for help or who is a safe person to ask for help, right?
[00:23:15] And don’t be afraid to ask and be open to the possibility that you are going to get shut down. Every, door that you ask for assistance, they might not open for you. But keep trying and keep persisting. There are good people out there who’s willing to help, so just don’t be afraid to ask and and try new things too.
[00:23:37] That’s
[00:23:38] Josh Wilder: great. Obviously, a big barrier is land ownership in the first place and you describe in the article it being a deeply emotional turning point that transformed your trauma into belonging. And so beyond the business aspect, how was having that haven impacting your mother’s health and your family’s overall resilience?
[00:23:58] Pa Thao: Yeah. It’s [00:24:00] really … I think that sense of pride of belonging somewhere is really important, not just to my family, but I think to Hmong people overall. We are a group of people without land, without country, right? And so having land that, that we can say is ours, it’s really, it’s really significant. And not only is it emotional, but it means that we belong somewhere, right? That you can’t take this land from us or from me and that we actually feel bounded where we’re at. And I think sometimes for folks who may have access to land or may not be a refugee or immigrant or, have a home country to easily go back into- they don’t really feel that sense of the importance of like really having something that is yours that you can come back to.
[00:24:49] And so I share a story of … I’m gonna share a story of a conversation I had with a friend who is from South America, and she wanted to give back into, … She wanted to go buy [00:25:00] land in South America and start like growing coffee and then bring that to Wisconsin as a social enterprise, right?
[00:25:06] And for her, because she has she was able to get US c- citizenship and she was a citizen of that country, she was able to go back and buy land and run her operation in that way. And I was sharing with her like as a refugee ch- child and as, and as someone that was born in a refugee camp, like I could never go back to a country that I was born in and be able to buy land and go back and feel like that’s where I belong, right?
[00:25:37] And so man, it’s really important. If you guys … It just makes us feel grounded, like we belong. And I sound chaotic, but,
[00:25:48] Josh Wilder: It is. It’s, it’s- Yeah … ag- And it’s being rooted. It’s having a place to put down roots to- …
[00:25:54] to be perennial.
[00:25:56] Pa Thao: Yeah. It really is. And it’s to know that like we belong, and we’re gonna be [00:26:00] here and this is our home, right?
[00:26:01] And no one’s gonna be able to push us out and take that away from us. And so I think … So yeah, so in that sense, like land ownership is really significant to Hmong people, and to myself, and to my mom. It just feel like we, like we can be here.
[00:26:18] Josh Wilder: Yeah. And honestly that, that makes, turning it into a you-pick program and sharing that space with everyone I think that much more valuable. I think both ways it seems like, for you to make it part of the community and to share your story- … and for the folks visiting to, to learn- … so much about your culture, about your story, about, like you said, just where food comes from and what the process is of building what you’ve built.
[00:26:43] And you talk about in the piece a lot about some of the experiences that you’ve put together the agriculture workshop, the bridal shower bouquet making, and, it’s a really diverse group of events and I’m sh- Are these are these something you work on with your mom to put together or is this [00:27:00] something that, where do these ideas come from?
[00:27:02] Pa Thao: Yeah. So I do work on it with my mom, but also, working it with like community, right? Like people- When they come to the farm, it just I- I’m still surprised and I think our visitors are very surprised that when you come, it just feels different. And we’re, like, smack in between a busy highway in a busy county, like highway in the back.
[00:27:25] But until you actually get on the farm you won’t know that it’s there. So it’s like a little hidden haven for a lot of folks that come out that lives just five minutes into town, right? And so people come, they’re like, “We wanna see this,” or, “Can you do this for us,” right?
[00:27:40] Pa Thao: The STEM workshop I held with high school students, I was I was approached by the program director and she was like, “Hey, I really want my students to, learn about farming.”
[00:27:50] And she had a lot of students in her program that were Hmong. And she was like all they understood is the really hard labor that goes into farming because they either have [00:28:00] family that farm and sell at the farmers market or they just hear that it’s just not really good work, right?
[00:28:06] And I think the the way that our families have really coached us is that they want us to go to school, right? Have a good education, work a desk job, they don’t have to work a labor-intensive job as they do working in manufacturing company or farming for secondary income.
[00:28:21] And so the push for our young people to really enter professional, fields means that less of our folks are, like, really getting into farming either for food or for business or whatnot. And so these young people that were out there, they, they only saw that side of farming.
[00:28:37] And she was like, “I want them to see how, farming is very STEM and how they can consider it as a career, right? To be a farmer. And how it is really healing and all of that.” And so we created this whole program just to really work with Hmong kids and teach them the importance of take care of your land.
[00:28:55] The ways that Hmong culture really weaved into farming now and how that [00:29:00] is something that our people carry with us from generations back, and really sharing with kids their own culture and their own family.
[00:29:07] Pa Thao: And yeah, community comes and they ask and and we do things that, that people needed and that makes sense for us on the farm.
[00:29:15] So that’s how all those thing comes about and I’m always looking for fresh ideas. I don’t think any any idea is a bad idea. I think I myself am a long a lifelong learner and so I always want to, like- You know try new things and do new things and be able to learn and grow in the process.
[00:29:35] Josh Wilder: That’s great. Is there any- are there any workshops that are in the works or that you hope to do, but just don’t have, quite have the pieces together yet for?
[00:29:44] Pa Thao: Yeah. So I’ve … One of my dream workshop or dream thing I wanna do in the farm is to grow hemp into fiber. Oh, wow. Yeah. And that’s a practice that our people has done back in the homelands of Laos, Thailand, China.
[00:29:58] Where they grow their own hemp, they [00:30:00] turn it to fiber, and then they turn it to beautiful hemp clothing for communities, right? And so that’s something that I wanna be able to see how we can do it here. I know in Wisconsin we’ve, we have a hemp, permit licenser, all of that we have to get through.
[00:30:14] And so that’s a project I’m, I … it’s a dream project that I continue to work on and see how that could be a possibility to really make that a reality for the farm. But also educational and teaching project for the community, right? That, that we can still practice our own traditional methods, like making clothes and really taking what we grow on our own land to turn that into everyday commodity that can really support our families and and produce beautiful Hmong clothing.
[00:30:45] Josh Wilder: That’s great, yeah. And if that starts getting off the ground, please reach out. We’d love to cover that. I think that’s a, that’s an excellent story. And yeah, I think that, that story of, where fiber comes from, if people don’t know where food comes from they know- even less about where their clothes come from.
[00:30:59] Pa Thao: [00:31:00] Exactly.
[00:31:01] Josh Wilder: Thanks so much for your time, and really appreciate telling your story. And I’m looking forward to sharing with our readers.
[00:31:08] Pa Thao: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
