Livestock Guardian Dogs
Kenny Coogan: [00:00:00] There’s several breeds that could be considered livestock guardian dogs. What does the temperament and working drive of an Anatolian differ from the other common breeds?
Catherine O’Brien: The biggest difference between a livestock guardian dog and your regular dogs, like your labs, goldens, border, collies, rottweilers, all of those dogs are high prey drive. And they’re gonna be more aggressive. The livestock guardian dogs are low prey drive. They’re actually bred to be defensive, which is a big difference.
And they’re bred to be calm. So I think the biggest difference between the Anatolian and the other livestock guardian breeds is number one, their coat. They have a coat that doesn’t mat, which is very desired in really hot climates. But they also can do quite well in cold temperatures too, ’cause they have a double coat.
I think the next thing is their intelligence. They’re extremely intelligent. We have working border collies. The [00:01:00] Anatolian is just as intelligent as a working border collie, but they use their intelligence differently. They think differently. They’re wired differently.
Josh Wilder: Welcome to the Mother Earth News and Friends podcast. At Mother Earth News for 50 years and counting, we’ve been dedicated to conserving the planet’s natural resources while helping you conserve your financial resources in this podcast. We host conversations with experts in the fields of sustainability, homesteading, natural health, and more to share all about how you can live well wherever you are in a way that values both people and our Mother Earth.
Kenny Coogan: Good day everyone. I am Kenny Cogan, and joining me on this episode of of Mother Earth News and Friends is Catherine O’Brien of Skyview Anatolians. Catherine is AKC bronze breeder of merit and a respected authority of livestock guardian dogs, especially the powerful and perceptive [00:02:00] antonian shepherd.
Today we’re gonna be talking about the living barking defenders of the pasture guardian dogs who protect flocks, herds, and homesteads. We’ll dig into the instincts, training, and daily realities of working with these independent canines while also besting a few myths along the way.
Welcome to the podcast, Catherine.
Catherine O’Brien: Thank you very much.
Benefits of Anatolian Shepherd Dogs
Kenny Coogan: So Catherine, how did you first get involved with the Anatolian Shepherds and what drew you to this particular breed and who came up with the name Anatolian?
Catherine O’Brien: They came from the Anatolian Plateau of Turkey. So they’re an ancient breed. They’re over 6,000 years old.
So they’re pretty set in their ways. I first got involved with them we had sheep before ’cause we have working border collies and I wanted a good guardian [00:03:00] dog. Something that was also more of a farm dog, a protective dog, but one that would be excellent with family. And I had one of those types of dogs when I was a senior in college many years ago.
So that’s what I was looking for. I actually looked for a breed based on the traits, and that’s how I landed on the Anatolian Shepherd.
AKC Bronze Breeder of Merit Responsibilities
Kenny Coogan: As AKC bronze breeder of merit. What responsibilities and values do you bring to breeding the LGDs with both instinct and sound temperament, and also what is the bronze breeder of merit?
Catherine O’Brien: The bronze breeder of merit means that I have produced a certain number of dogs that are titled champions. What I bring to the table is I value genetic diversity. So I’ve imported dogs from Europe. I’ve also imported semen from various different countries to, to further the program and to make sure that what I’m producing is the best [00:04:00] quality.
So a temperament comes first. Instinct. Instinct should be there. You’re not gonna breed that out. If it’s been there for 6,000 years, you’re not gonna breed that out over a few generations. So I think really it just being responsible and helping people and being an advocate for the breed, that’s what goes into being a breeder of merit.
Determining Temperament in LGDs
Kenny Coogan: When you’re talking to the other breeders, do they say, this dog has showed this temperament over the last four years? How do they judge the temperament of the dogs?
Catherine O’Brien: Nobody comes in and says the dogs are based on their merit and what they’ve done over the years. Have they been a great guardian? Super. Have they not been then they’re not going to be. I think when breeders come together they also already know based on knowledge of what they have as to whether or not their stud dog is good. So I, I really think the temperament is the temperament. You also have to remember instincts is one thing [00:05:00] and personality is another.
Bringing Home a Guardian Dog
Kenny Coogan: For someone new to homesteading or livestock, what’s the number one thing they should understand before bringing home a guardian dog?
Catherine O’Brien: I think the most important thing is good fencing, because if you don’t have good fencing, you’re not gonna protect your stock. You’re not gonna keep your dog at home.
So I think spending as much as you possibly can on good quality fencing is gonna assist you and pay off extreme benefits down the road because you may not even need a livestock guardian if you have quality fencing.
Temperament and Working Drive of Anatolian Dogs
Kenny Coogan: So there’s several breeds that could be considered livestock guardian dogs. What does the temperament and working drive of an Anatolian differ from the other common breeds?
Catherine O’Brien: The biggest difference between a livestock guardian dog and your regular dogs, like your labs, [00:06:00] goldens, border, collies, rottweilers, all of those dogs are high prey drive. And they’re gonna be more aggressive. The livestock guardian dogs are low prey drive. They’re actually bred to be defensive, which is a big difference.
And they’re bred to be calm. So I think the biggest difference between the Anatolian and the other livestock guardian breeds is number one, their coat. They have a coat that doesn’t mat, which is very desired in really hot climates. But they also can do quite well in cold temperatures too, ’cause they have a double coat.
I think the next thing is their intelligence. They’re extremely intelligent. We have working border collies. The Anatolian is just as intelligent as a working border collie, but they use their intelligence differently. They think differently. They’re wired differently. So I think that’s one of the biggest differences.
Typical Day of a Working Livestock Guardian Dog
Kenny Coogan: What does a typical day in the life of a well adjusted Anatolian look like on a working farm?
Catherine O’Brien: It’s gonna be [00:07:00] whatever that farm needs that dog to do. It depends on what stock they’re in. If they’re with birds or if they’re with sheep, or if they’re looking over cattle, it’s not gonna be a typical day.
They’re gonna be quieter during the day and they’re gonna be more active at night because they’re gonna be, patrolling at night. But as far as a typical, they’re gonna adapt to whatever you need them to do.
Kenny Coogan: We are both friends with the Foundation for International Aid to Animals (FIAA), and I’ve seen that there’s some livestock guardian dogs in South America that are protecting flocks from Pumas. There’s some in South Africa that are protecting livestock against cheetahs, and then in the US they’re protecting against wolves and coyotes.
Catherine O’Brien: I’m sending a puppy over there for the Cheetah Outreach to be in their breeding program to expand their gene pool.
So they raise the puppies and give them to farmers there so [00:08:00] that the cheetah doesn’t wanna come into that space and take their stock. It’s to keep, it’s to keep the cheetahs from coming in. Therefore there’s not gonna be a conflict where, the farmer ends up shooting them. So that’s their goal is to keep the cheetahs away from areas with the livestock. Their livestock gets protected and the cheetahs don’t become a threat to them.
When to Introduce LDG Puppies to Livestock
Kenny Coogan: At what age do you start exposing the puppies to the livestock?
Catherine O’Brien: That’s a hot button question. Most people, a lot of people say throw ’em out with a stock at eight weeks and they know what to do, and that’s not true.
You can’t put a small puppy in with livestock that’s not dog friendly. And we had dorper sheep here for years and I had a couple ewes that would try to kill a puppy, so I couldn’t put puppies in when they were small. I had to wait until they’re about five or [00:09:00] six months old and then introduce them to the stock because then the sheep would, respect them.
Everything is gonna depend on what the homesteader has on their property. If they have stock that are dog friendly and have been around dogs before, or if they have aggressive stock, then I wouldn’t recommend putting that puppy in. Because they’re gonna get injured and then they’re not gonna wanna guard that.
They’re gonna be like, no way. Thanks. But no thanks. It depends on your situation and what type of stock you have. And because of the sheep that I had, I waited to put them in there and then it was fine. Plus you got some puppy training under the, under your, under their belt.
And they were older and more responsive to you because you’d already developed your rapport with them for training. So they were quick to figure out what they wanted to do.
Socializing and Imprinting LGDs
Kenny Coogan: So that’s how you balanced the socialization with the imprinting you are working with the puppies for the first five to six months. And then they’re integrated into the flock?
Catherine O’Brien: Yes. They’re exposed [00:10:00] every day. But they’re not left to get harmed. Now, when I say I had ewes that were nasty. They actually gave one puppy a traumatic brain injury. It was that bad.
Determining How Many LGDs are Needed
Kenny Coogan: Is there a ratio of dogs to livestock?
Catherine O’Brien: I would say it’s more a ratio of how big the property is. How good the fencing is. So the larger properties are gonna need more dogs to cover. Somebody that has a five acre farm, they could probably get away with one dog. As long as they have good fencing. Good fencing. Helps your livestock guardian keep things out, keep them home. And it’s just, it’s a good practice ’cause I won’t even place a puppy unless people have fencing.
Kenny Coogan: Did you see the video of the livestock guardian dogs protecting livestock in South America against Pumas? This one was on [00:11:00] a famous Nat Geo Discovery program, and all the sheep were sleeping and they had this beautiful night camera of the puma sneaking up towards the fence and then the dog’s ears perk up.
Catherine O’Brien: I think I did see that one. They look like they’re not doing anything, but they’re paying attention to everything and that was in the night vision and it was coming over the fence and it decided maybe this is not a good idea. That’s exactly, yeah, that’s exactly what they’re, the dogs did exactly what they’re supposed to do.
LGD Puppy Training
Kenny Coogan: Can you walk us through your puppy raising process at Skyview Antonians from birth to [00:12:00] placement?
Catherine O’Brien: From birth to placement, they’re handled every day. Some people call it early neurological stimulation. We do that and we have the puppies learn to trust people, and I think that’s the biggest thing. So they’re handled every day and we expose them to some crazy things like drills, vacuums. So they’re, they get used to a lot of loud noises, so they’re not gonna be noise phobic. Then they’re exposed to animals and people and everything that they need to be exposed to, by the time that they go home.
How Genetics Shape Reliable Livestock Guardian Dogs
Kenny Coogan: And earlier before the break, you mentioned instinct versus personalities.
Can you talk a little bit more about how important are the genetics of shaping a reliable guardian dog?
Catherine O’Brien: I think genetics and health is very important in shaping our reliable guardian dog. That’s where the instinct and the [00:13:00] personalities come in. The guardian instinct is there. The instinct to protect is there. But for a guardian, they still have to be taught the appropriate behavior for each type of stock that doesn’t come pre-programmed.
They don’t have that chip in there, so they have to learn that has to be taught. And so not every puppy and every litter is gonna be a great guardian dog. There’s gonna be some that have a personality that they’re gonna wanna be more with people or be more social. And you can have a social dog that’s still a great livestock guardian too.
So it’s a matter of figuring out what’s gonna be the best fit for that dog and that family placement and that farm placement
Should Breeding Dogs be Working as LGDs
Kenny Coogan: Should breeding dogs be working? Can a pregnant dog work up until they give birth, or do they need to be separated from the livestock?
Catherine O’Brien: I would say it depends on your stock. If you have really rough stock, then no, I wouldn’t want [00:14:00] an eight week old pregnant bitch to get hit on the side. I really wouldn’t. And it depends on the temperatures too. If it’s super, super hot, then probably not. Because they’re gonna get very large and very uncomfortable the last three weeks of their pregnancy.
If somebody has a female that gets pregnant, they’re gonna need to take care of her and make sure she has proper nutrition plenty of water and, see the vet and that sort of thing.
Kenny Coogan: Do you think most people who have livestock guardian dogs, do they keep them intact or are they spayed and neutered, or does it not matter?
When to Neuter LGDs
Catherine O’Brien: I think that most people, if they have them for working livestock, guardian dogs are gonna end up wanting to spay or neuter, but you don’t wanna do that until two because they need their hormones to develop mentally and physically, and they do take a long time to mature. So I would say spaying and neutering a livestock guardian dog is probably best because then [00:15:00] they’re not gonna wanna wander.
You’re also not gonna invite strange dogs onto your property when you’re females in heat. And then the male’s not gonna wanna leave when it can smell the beagle two miles down the road to go after it. So that’s why I would say for working in the fields, I would say spay and neutering is best.
Kenny Coogan: In the show notes for the podcast, you provided a few high resolution pictures of you and some of your dogs.
For instance, a picture of Blue from September, 2024 when they were 10 months old, won the Best Puppy in Show at the first Specialty of the Nationals weekend. So for those of the people who aren’t referencing the photo, can you talk about how big an Anatolian is?
Catherine O’Brien: She is probably 95 pounds there. [00:16:00] So she’s probably gonna be 115 at the end stages when she’s around two, a little over two . Males can be anywhere from 110 to 165. Females can range anywhere from 90 to 130. So they’re big dogs. They’re not small.
I’ve got some, several males that are 160 pounds lean. They’re not heavy either. They’re not fat, put it that way.
Kenny Coogan: And these dogs, or this breed good for cheetahs, pumas, coyotes, wolves, bears?
Catherine O’Brien: I think they’re good for, again, I go back to the fencing. If you have good fencing and you have enough dogs, if you have an area that if you’re in Colorado and you’re, you’ve got cougar, then you need more than one.
You need a pack of dogs. If you have five acres, in North Carolina, you can probably get away with one dog. It depends on where you are and what the [00:17:00] predator. What the predator load is.
Should You Get LGD Siblings
Kenny Coogan: Do people oftentimes get siblings or are they getting like one at a time?
Catherine O’Brien: No, I don’t recommend people get siblings because you’ve got to train the dogs and I’m gonna launch that, it’s gonna launch me into something.
When you get these puppies, you have to raise and train them. You have to crate train them. You have to teach them to ride in a car so that they can go to the vet. You have to be able to walk them on a leash. When you throw a puppy out in the barn lot and you don’t handle it, and you don’t take care of it, you don’t trim its nails. You don’t clean its ears. When it’s 140 pounds, you have a dog you can’t handle. And I think it’s a really, it’s really important to train your dog, to be a regular dog. To go to the vet, have a life, interact with people, not be a liability for you. And then at the same time, also train them to be [00:18:00] a good livestock guardian dog.
And as far as getting siblings, what happens is people don’t train. They leave their dogs alone and the dogs don’t bond to the stock and they don’t bond to the people, they bond to each other. That’s what happens with siblings. So I don’t recommend people getting siblings, and I also think opposite sex works better.
If you have a male and you’re bringing in another dog, then I would say get a female opposite. Sex pairs work better. No I just think it’s very important because, a lot of people get the small acreage and they buy the goats and they get all this stuff and they spend a ton of money, and then something happens, somebody gets sick, somebody has cancer, some, something happens to that family, and they have to place those dogs.
It’s important that you gave those dogs the tools to be able to transition to another home, which is riding in a car, which is going into a crate, which is having manners. And I think [00:19:00] that’s critical.
Common Mistakes with New Livestock Guardian Dog Owners
Kenny Coogan: I was gonna ask you, what are some common mistakes that new livestock guardian dog owners make? But do most people mistakenly think that they’re outside dogs?
Catherine O’Brien: There’s a lot of common misconceptions that, oh you put ’em out with a stock at eight weeks and they already know what to do ’cause they’re livestock guardian dogs and they’ll figure it out and those dogs don’t figure it out.
I think the biggest things that happen is that the dogs don’t get guidance. Yes. They’re protective. Yes. They’re resource guardians. That’s what they, that’s what they’re. Genetically designed to do is resource guard. The livestock is their resource, their home is their resource. But they, people have to realize that they have to train these puppies.
And this is another big thing is that it takes a long time for them to mature. It takes ’em about two years to fully mature. And you’re gonna go through phases around seven to nine months, you’re gonna hit a fear [00:20:00] period. Not all dogs exhibit this, but some of them are like, what in the world happened to you?
You’re, that’s a lawn chair. What’s wrong? And they’re scared of the lawn chair and it’s just simply, it’s hormonal and it’s something that they go through. It’s a little phase. And then, people have. 12 months old that, that are great with the chickens, they’re perfect. And then about 14 months, oh my gosh, they’re eating my chickens.
They’re chasing my sheep. That’s a teenage phase. It’s a, actually, it’s a phase. And that’s when you need to step back and do some more training and just take them out of the stock, get their head straight by refocusing them, refocusing their brain. They think that they’re, teenagers are young adults and they’re not, they, they still have to be shaped and formed. So you take them out of being able to harm the stock, go back to the basics, and then once they’re through that phase, you can put ’em back in with your stock. I think those are the things that are missing for a lot of people because they, they’re going along great and then all of a sudden something [00:21:00] happens and, oh, it’s a bad dog.
It’s not a bad dog. It’s going through a teenage phase. They’re, they, they get rebellious. They forget everything they’ve ever taught. They’ve ever been taught. And so you have to take, bring ’em back to basics in order to get them through that.
Kenny Coogan: So you have ’em with the livestock or the poultry and if they have a mistake, you take ’em out and you’re like retraining them. Leave it or sit and stay and all those.
Catherine O’Brien: You do things to break their, to break the focus and to break the mentality so that they’re listening to you again, because they’re, they’ve gone into a phase where they’re not listening to anybody. But you don’t wanna make it confrontational.
You wanna make it fun or at least to where they’re rewarded for something. So you try something different. You take ’em places or do something different with them so that they focus on you, focus on what they’re doing, and so that they learn their place again.
Mentorship for New LGD Owners
Kenny Coogan: What kind of mentorship or support or [00:22:00] resources do you offer or do you suggest for new puppy owners to obtain?
Catherine O’Brien: I would say work with a breeder that’s gonna support, support your purchase and support you. As you raise your puppy I’ve got some people that, text me daily when they get their puppy home, and that’s perfectly fine. And then I’m there to ask any que, answer any questions or I like talking to them so they can I can understand what’s going on in the best way to, help them and answer their questions.
But I would definitely say have a breeder that’s gonna be there, that’s gonna support them. And sometimes when people have some things happen in their life they can’t control and they need to return their dog or replace their dog, then the breeder steps in and helps ’em.
Kenny Coogan: I don’t want you to tell me how much they are, but are they similarly priced as a non-working purebred dog, [00:23:00] or are they much more expensive or are they cheaper?
Catherine O’Brien: I would say most of the Anatolian are reasonably priced. If you go out and buy a German Shepherd or something like that, you’re gonna, that’s not for livestock, for a pet or whatever it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be about the same price and you’re gonna pay more for, from a breeder that has quality dogs and then health tests, and you wanna see that.
OFA is Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. So breeders that have tested their animals are in the database and the public can actually go and view and see what health tests that they’ve had.
The Versatility of the Anatolian Livestock Dog
Kenny Coogan: Can you talk a little bit about the anatolian’s versatility? And have you seen the livestock guardian dogs or the Anatolian adapt to different predators?
Catherine O’Brien: The [00:24:00] Anatolian are very intelligent. They’re gonna adapt and they’re going to learn what’s needed.
They can also be family companions as well. Not just livestock guardian dogs, but they have to be with people that understand the breed and that family’s going to adjust their expectations for the dog and not have, not expect the dog to adapt to them. You have the guardian, you can’t have people walking into your house unannounced.
They’re just, they’re amazing. They’re amazing dogs. I have, and this is not their typical thing in their wheelhouse, but I actually have two dogs that are epilepsy alert dogs, and they are fully certified to go on airplanes and buses. Anything else that they need to be. But that’s not the norm.
That’s not the norm for the livestock guardian dogs. But as far as the versatility and their intelligence, I think that speaks to that.[00:25:00]
Kenny Coogan: Are, do you believe that Anatolian are the best lifestyle guardian dog that is adapted to different climates and terrain and predator pressures?
Catherine O’Brien: I’m gonna be biased in my answer because those are the dogs that I know the best, and I’ve spent about 20 years with. I would prefer them over anything because even I don’t want, I love the Pyrenees. I think they’re beautiful, but I wouldn’t wanna take care of that coat. The auditors are pretty easy to maintain. And they’re a healthy breed too. As long as you do, your maintenance on them.
They’re gonna, they’re gonna last a while.
Kenny Coogan: For our last question of the day. Can you share a favorite story or two, or a moment that perfectly [00:26:00] captures why you decided and dedicated your life to the Anatolians?
Catherine O’Brien: They amaze me every day, and I think it’s also the bond that you have with them because you appreciate what they do for you. And you just have to respect them for what they are.
They also are excellent at reading people, and I think one of the biggest things, my dad died of Alzheimer’s in 2011, and I think the last time he was out here was probably like 2007 to the farm. My mother came and my mother was driving and so my, he was my heart dog, Duke.
My dad hadn’t really been around my dad and Duke was extremely guardy. Duke was s growling and barking if you got outta your vehicle. And so I was like, oh. Duke’s out. And dad, dad gets out of the car. He is, and he is coming around the side of the car.
And Duke went up to him and greeted [00:27:00] him like he’d known him all his life. I was just shocked. Duke didn’t greet anybody without growling them and giving them the warning, okay, look, you’re on my turf. You don’t, don’t steal anything, mind your manners, et cetera. And so I was just, I was amazed and dad petted him and, and then my mother got out of the car and my mother is not how do I put it?
She can be a very difficult person. And I guess I tensed up when she got out the car. Duke went into full guard mode. He’s like barking at her and says you’re not coming, you’re not gonna in here. So I think that was the biggest thing was that the dog’s reaction because the dog knew how I felt about the person then.
Isn’t it amazing?.
Kenny Coogan: Yes.
Catherine O’Brien: To, to me, the dog. He is not gonna hurt her or anything. He was just barking at her. But it was a different reaction. He hadn’t seen my dad, and yet he knew I had a connection with him. And then when my mom got outta the car, I tensed up and he’s oh wait, mom’s tense. Wait a minute. Hold on. So [00:28:00] I think the dogs are pretty amazing and the bond you have with them. And Duke was special. He was my first dog. He was my first show dog. He was a champion. I think he was like number six when the invitations to Westminster went out and the first five got invitations and he wasn’t even, he wasn’t even two years old yet.
That was like his first year out showing. So he was an awesome dog.
Kenny Coogan: Thank you so much, Catherine, for speaking with us today on Livestock Guardian Dogs, and you can learn more about Catherine by visiting Skyview Anatolians
Catherine O’Brien: Thank you.
Josh Wilder: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Mother Earth News and Friends. To listen to more podcasts and get connected on our social media, visit www.motherearthnews.com/podcast. You can also email us at podcast@ogdenpubs.com with any questions or suggestions. Our podcast production team includes Kenny Coogan, Alyssa Warner, and [00:29:00] myself, Josh Wilder.
Music for this episode is the song Hustle by Kevin MacLeod. The Mother Earth News and Friends podcast is a production of Ogden Publications.
