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aris
#21 Posted : Monday, July 07, 2003 9:50:57 PM
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In a purely non-connotative, science-agreed manner, all things are composed of chemicals, including us. However, my use of the word was in the perjorative: those chemical compounds that kill, harm, maim, alter for the worse, anything/everything living.

Yes...those chemicals you mention break down, as you said, into components that are usually trace minerals humans need to survive. (I see you use Gardens Alive too!) Iron, copper, etc. Getting these on your hands usually isn''t too worrying.

However, chemicals such as those listed in this thread and those commonly on shelves in your local non-union superstore do not break down into benign components. As a matter of fact, they''re showing up in water tables hundreds of miles away, still inimical and effective. Those are the kinds of harmful chemicals I was proselytizing against. ;) And it''s not like there''s no other option -- see the answers we came up with for fire ants! And did you know spraying rehydrated powdered milk does a grand job, proactively, against powdery mildew? Amazing!
skruzich
#22 Posted : Monday, July 07, 2003 10:07:27 PM
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Uhhmmm its like this aris, when you are setting there working your butt off in the garden and come out each day to see it being decimated by something like a japanese beetle, and whatever you try that is non toxic or natural doesn''t do the job of killing them or at least keeping them away, then you have to do something in order not to lose your entire crop. Basically, Sevin is a pesticide that has been used over 100 years. It has had the least effect on humans, and is a pesticide that will stay on the surface of the plant. It washes off the plants during a rainstorm and yes it does go into the ground, but IMO, i have seen no irreversible or even noticible damage to the soil. I know it will kill a few microbes, but one interesting thing i have noticed is that eartworms do not seem to be affected by it and they don''t leave the area that has been sprayed with sevin.
I also understand that what is recommended by the manufacturer is not always the best thing to do to get the same results. For instance, They recommended that i put 1 oz concentrate of sevin per 100 foot of ground. I just experimented and found that 1/5 of a oz will work the same to run off the japanese beetles. I sprayed one time a little over a week ago and have had two storms come through and still no beetles are on my garden. But go 10 feet over away from the garden and they are devouring everything that has a broad leaf.
I sprayed milky spore the other day but that won''t get rid of them for at least 2 years. It takes that long to break the cycle.

As for Sevin getting into the food, I doubt that it is affecting the food. If you take your produce and place it in your sink and cover it in water and put salt in the water, it will clean the produce and draw out any residue that might be on the plant. Then you just rinse it off under running water.
Aris, not everything has a reasonable solution. Standing over the garden and grabbing every bug that lands on a leaf is not feasable. I would love it if there was a easy answer. But save moving away from any pine tree (which is the primary source of Japanese Beetles nowadays) i doubt we will be able to control them without some form of pesticide. Apemanevo is right, chemicals are both inorganic and organic.
I mean look at it this way, hemlock is organic and it has a fatal toxicity. So does Cyanide and it is a chemical or element. Not much difference in either.
I have found that you can use pesticides when necessary if you take great care and make sure you don''t use more than you need and you can get good results with no side effects. Yes i would feed my kids food grown that had been sprayed with Sevin dust. Not a problem there. would i do it with the pesticides that Con-Agra or the big corps use? Heeeeeyyyyylll no!
I don''t buy anything at all from the grocery store that is vegitable and if a fruit is from south america, i won''t buy it at all. If it was grown here in the US i will buy some of the fruit if it has a thick peel. Then i make sure its scrubbed and peeled.
steve
Apemanevo
#23 Posted : Monday, July 07, 2003 10:08:14 PM
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Gotcha Aris. Agreed.
justme
#24 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:06:37 PM
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my garden is organic, and i use sustainable methods like crop rotation, beneficial insects, and traps to keep it free of most bad bugs. i don''t mind losing a plant every now and then to keep this standard up. that said, if a significant portion of my vegetable or ornamental plants were being threatened, and my usual methods weren''t working, i would definitely use a pesticide on them. my thinking is: not everything is black and white, and ideals are what you strive for, not what you starve for.
of course, i agree that you need to take the instructions on the labels with a grain of salt--i''m assuming they tell you to use the highest concentration possible, not the lowest effective concentration. after all, the more you use, the more you buy! i''ve found that it''s better to talk to people who''s been doing it for years, and see what works for them. sometimes they even have an organic method you haven''t thought of that will take care of the problem.
skruzich
#25 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 1:43:05 PM
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Quite frankly I wish i could find something that would work with these jap beetles. I am going to try to use the rosa rugosa, but i was looking at my moms roses yesterday and she has rose hips shrubs planted at the back and there isn''t a jap beetle on them, they are however molesting her roses.
I DO know that the milky spore will kill them. But it takes so darn long to do it.
Does anyone know where and why the jap beetle was introduced into this country????
Of all the bugs out there, this is probably the worst one that i can think of other than grashoppers and locust.

Since my mater plants are not doing good at all due to the rain, I have decided to grow them in pots on my deck. I think i would get a much better result and then i could run the vines along the rails. So far the beetles haven''t found them yet.
I have been watching my black berries which i had sprayed some of them with a light coating of sevin a couple weeks ago. So far they haven''t been attacked by the beetles. There has been two showers since, so i think the liquid sevin will stay on the plant longer than the powdered form. Meanwhile I have been picking berries the last few days and I put the berries in some baking soda and a touch of salt solution. The Baking soda will draw out poison from the sevin dust. It bonds with the sevin.
Old chemistry trick ;)
Anyway it doesn''t take much. I use this on all vegitables anyway as it makes a great wash to remove not only pesticide residue but residue from acid rain, smog and other pollutants in the air. Even the Organic gardens that some of us run, if you wash your produce in this, once you have your stuff washed the water will turn dirty from the residues that fall on the produce from the rain and every day air blowing.
Better yet though to be safe from most of the toxins that land on our food, make sure you peel everything you can after washing. That will help alot
aris
#26 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:01:52 PM
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Sounds like you''re in a tough spot, Steve, and you have found the easy solution you were hoping for -- spraying pesticides. Perhaps the information from this thread might give you ideas for other ways to control the beetles, so you don''t have to spray so much next year.

Yes, there are naturally occurring plants and things, such as cyanide, that kill. Still, I wouldn''t have them in my food garden either.
skruzich
#27 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 7:25:33 PM
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Heck I found A solution not the easiest or the hardest, You have to realize that i have fought this problem for over two years now and just recently found out through the department of AG that milky spore will kill them off. Nothing i have tried, has worked at all. Heck even the sevin is temporary, it doesn''t kill them off for long. They keep coming back and worse ever time. I believe the biggest cause of the infestation are the pines. They have just about destroyed 27,000 acres of pines across the road from me. They will have to burn all of that wood because it is unfit for use in building materials.
Oh and these pines are cultivated and harvested once every ten years. Thats what the land is used for.


Actually, about plants that contain cyanide, It is a naturally occuring substance in our soil. Along with arsinic. It is in minute quantities though, and these particular plants thrive on that so they suck it out of the soil. Even our gardens and produce we grow has these elements in the food we eat and our bodies require a certain amount of it to be healthy.


Aris I have reread some posts, How do you control the beetles? I see you condemning the use of pesticides but offering no solution? Apemanevo offered a solution that i am going to try but It won''t help me this year.

aris
#28 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 9:57:05 PM
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Don''t have beetle problems; have airborne scale that will cover and kill a 10-foot tall tomato plant in a month. And aphids that are nurtured by ever-present ants. And, in this moist clime, powdery mildew is present in all gardens, and fungus gnats eat the roots unless you wait until the plants begin to wilt to brown before you water them.

J Beetles are not my problem, but I remembered a letter I read in OG about japanese beetles, so I looked it up for you:

Larkspur Deadly to Japanese Beetles

Dear Sir,
In a recent issue of OGF, a lady marveled at the death of so many Japanese beetles at the base of a larkspur plant. Larkspur (all varieties) contains poisonous compounds that, if eaten, will cause digestive upsets in humans. It will kill cattle if they get enough of it -- and a little is quite enough. So the Japanese beetle who sallies forth and nibbles any part of the larkspur has signed his own death warrant.

Will Hotsberry
Sun Valley, California

Organic Gardening and Farming, January, 1966


Weeknee, my post about poisons was not against YOU but against the idea of using things that kill on plants that we eat...especially as so many options are coming up these days. It was only when you felt personally embattled that this became a pi$$ing match, pesticide-user against rabid tree-hugging organic grower. I didn''t mean to belittle your problem nor your efforts, you''re the only one who knows how tough it''s been.

However, you never seemed to consider that you might not be helping yourself by spraying an insecticide that kills everything. The most efficient method of controlling japanese beetles is to attract beneficial wasps, which parasatize the beetles and perpetuate this cycle, this year, the next year, and forever. However, by killing most of the bugs (all kinds!) in your garden and by not knowing which plants to include to attract these wasps, you''ve shut yourself off from this plan to control the beetles plaguing you.

I got this link on the first try from a search engine (hotbot, my favorite).
"a natural enemy of the Japanese beetle, the Spring Tiphia Wasp (Tiphia vernalis), was deliberately released in the US about 80 years ago—just a few years after the dreaded beetle was accidentaly introduced (back around 1916). Researchers apparently believed that the wasp didn''t naturalize, and pretty much forgot about it. But entomologist Richard McDonald, Ph.D., has discovered the wasp alive and well on parts of the Eastish Coast—specifically from New York down to North Carolina and West to Ohio. It''s a GREAT beetle enemy—the female wasp actually goes down into the soil and lays her eggs right on the grubs, which then become other wasps (a year later) instead of those flying armored rose-eating pests!
"
http://www.organicgardening.com/Q&A/jbeetle.html

Here''s the deal: I''ve never even seen a japanese beetle, know no-one who''s had trouble with them. After 10 minutes on the Web and in my library, I could have found benefical insects and how to attract them, trap plants to distract them, killer plants, and possibly more...oh, and pesticides as an answer, too.

The answers we find depend on what we''re looking for. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. To me, every problem looks like a research effort and a year''s worth of worry to see if I did it right. But my problems with voracious insects (hornworms, aphids, etc.) are solved that year or the next...and the organic controls I research and use once or twice perpetuate themselves so that I usually never have that problem again. From what you''ve posted, spraying with pesticides perpetuates, too -- the gardener who does it one year will have to do it every year.
weeknee
#29 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:14:36 AM
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My oh my,looky at all this comotion ive started with a little sevin dust.I guess i should just keep quiet about using antifreeze as a weedkiller.
andydufresne
#30 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:30:22 AM
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LOL weeknee!

I think we all are obsessive about some things. I agree with Aris that USUALLY there is a better way than pesticides but I also will say that when that doesn''t work I will use a commercial pesticide or fertilizer. I, for one, believe that stiring a commotion is a good thing. It makes us all think.
skruzich
#31 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:57:07 AM
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Hey like i said i have tried alot of things. The one thing i don''t have is alot of room to plant a sacrificial crop. I have only so much space to grow my garden, and it just barely fills my freezer up every year. So when i lose any of my crops, I lose my food supply.
I don''t have any of the problems with pests that others have except these #@*@$) beetles.
Aphids would be a blessing to me, if it ment these beetles would go away.
LOL weeknee, antifreeze for weedkiller ;) hehe.
Now as far as fertillizer, I use cow manure or horse, and if needed i use ammonium nitrate and lime for the soil. Other than that I don''t use anything else for fertilizer. I quit using chicken manure as they are using all kinds of antibiotics in their feeds and god only knows what they feed a chicken today that makes them full grown in 5 weeks.
I have one right now my son brought home 12 weeks ago,that is probably 5-8 pounds now.

TTYL
STeve
gardenz
#32 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 2:40:14 PM
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Just came upon this "beetle battle" and thought I''d put in my 2-1/2 inflationary cents-worth.

One of the cheapest (and IMO) most effective bug repellers is a spray of their deceased relatives! Catch (handpick) yourself a couple dozen of whatever the offensive critter may be (in this case the JAP.beetles). Drop them in a cup of slightly soapy water and dump the contents into a blender. Switch on the "Japanese Beetle Mode" :) and blend till their undiscernable. Strain into spray bottle and hit the rest of your effected plants with that cocktail.

It''s been my experience that any future pests won''t want to dine where old Uncle Charlie or Cousin Ned-Beetle''s remains have been blasted on the leaves!

Uh..BTW...you might want to consider investing (as I did) in an old flea-market-find blender to do your mixing. I don''t think it''d go over to big at your next family function, when mixing up some alkeeholic beverages, someone finds out you''ve been doing your gardening chores in the same blender. HAH!

gardenz
"Knowledge is Power. To live is not just to survive, but to thrive with passion, compassion, humor and style".
StreetLegal
#33 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:30:34 PM
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The "beetle in the bass-a-matic" sounds interesting...does it also work with deer or the neighbors'' cattle?? [:D]

Japanese beetles also succumb well to a BB gun.

Invite a few friends, chill some beers, and bet 25 cents per shot...good, clean fun!
Apemanevo
#34 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:46:22 PM
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If you can find "sickly" beetles, all the better. The spray will spread whatever is ailing them.
tedlucas
#35 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:52:43 PM
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gardenz;

This approach works well on most 6 legged criters, but not all. Some of them canabalize thier dead and this approach will only attract more. I found this out the hard way with squash bugs. It hasn''t slowed my grasshoppers down yet either.

Iris;
Do you know a good soution for grashoppers?
Apemanevo
#36 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:28:49 PM
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Grasshoppers are tough...chickens will eat them by the boatload...but they''ll also destry your garden. One thing that could work is a beneficial paramecium...Nosema Locustae- Applied as dry bait, the grasshoppers eat it and die. Not sure where to get it though. Neem oil can also be used as an appetite suppresant for insects...
gardenz
#37 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 9:59:29 PM
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HAH! "Bass-O-Matic!" Don''t think you''d want to see the elecric bill that you''d rack up switching on the rather sizeable blender you''d need to puree enough deer. Yuck and Ewww! But, after you do whip em up, you can store them in your Norge and hope the guy with the butt crack doesn''t have to come and repair the compressor!

Don''t know about the BB gun (*regrettable memories of the psychotic kid who lived across the street that used to use DH for target practice! Sigh!*)...But, methinks, StreetLegal, you''d most likely shred the hell outta the plant before you nailed one beetle pelt to your wall. Kinda like loading napalm in your flame weeder. Definite overkill! :)

I''m with apemanevo. When you''re out in the garden, listen for the beetles with a hacking cough. Go for them first! :)

Apemanevo''s right on recommending the nosema locustae for the hoppers. is merchandised as Nolo Bait® or SemiSpore®. You can just type those into any search engine or check out these sites:
http://www.extremelygreen.com/Product.cfm?Name=Sema%20Spore%20Bait%20(same%20as%20Nolo%20Bait)
http://www.planetnatural.com/grasshopperpamphlet.html
http://www.agrobiologicals.com/products/P415.htm

gardenz



StreetLegal
#38 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:27:04 PM
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"Butt crack" sounds so politically incorrect...a better term might be "male cleavage". :)
skruzich
#39 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:41:42 PM
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LOL, Well now, Hey street, i have seen some females that have that kind of cleavage too ;) Somewhere around 300 pounder mark. Hmmm I saw one the other day down in atlanta that tried to fit into a pair of short shorts and if she didn''t weigh 350 pounds i would eat my hat.
Shuddering at that thought.
StreetLegal
#40 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2003 3:37:23 PM
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C''mon Steve...none of us needed to hear that! :)
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