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skruzich
#1 Posted : Friday, January 09, 2004 1:20:52 AM
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Posts: 134,494
Hi michael, First of all, i am sorry about the cd. My son cleaned my desk here when it came in and I haven''t found it yet. :( I am initiating a all out search for it! I know it came in, just don''t know where my Marine put it. Grrrrr.

Ok, heres what i have. I am building the Flowerpot crucible but modified. I am making it in a Metal trashcan, with a piece of chimney clay pipe in the center and fireclay cement around it. I am building a "Flare" to put on the end of a pipe that is coming from a 5 gallon propane tank. I figure i can get the temps up hotter that way and if i am not mistaken, i can add a blower to it to increase the temps. Only problem i am having is finding a carbide crucible. ;(

I was also looking at one of the cuppolas and thinking that would melt just about anything.

I thought these cans were steel and i would say if i could melt them, i could use them for making fence posts to hang wire on and stuff like that.

Steve
michaels
#2 Posted : Saturday, January 10, 2004 5:53:17 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Received and responded on the cd-rom email.

A single gas fuel unit will not produce enough heat either.
Even with blower.
Even using a ''wick'' such as asbestos.
The charcoal system produces more heat than any single gas system.
Now if you charged it with a 2:1 coke:charcoal mixture, with a blower, you would have enough temp.
But then you have to mess with crucibles.

Not knowing what you have to work with, I cannot really take this much further.
A baby blaster, what you are calling a cuppula, might be just the thing.
If you charged that charcoal furnace with coke, you would have the same thing.
Before the changeup, with us now sending all scrap to the new enclave, I considered makeing one.
The crucible types are too expensive for a private person.
Especially when it comes to fuels.
My design was based off a modification of Lindsay''s tilting blaster.

Fence poles are too large.
Not even we can do that big.
I think you need to scale down your ideas.
You certainly can''t do that with a crucible type forge!

Look for Cadwell on the web.
That was our source of supply for the carbon for the crucibles.
They make the thermite welding carbon blocks.
They sell the ''loose'' carbon for block repair.

Michael
skruzich
#3 Posted : Saturday, January 10, 2004 8:25:17 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Just trying to figure a way to make something out of these cans, Maybe i might need to just forget about it. I hope that i will have enough groceries grown this next year where i won''t have to buy canned stuff.

The design i saw for the cuppola had a spout on its side for the liquid metal to pour from into a ladle or innto a mold that you might have nearby. Not sure if that would work well. Coke is something i could get i think, or actually coal.
Thanks for the input
steve
majere
#4 Posted : Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:47:14 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Steve, in a sentance, thee cannot make a cheap enough (both construction and operation costs) melting furnace to handle iron and steel to make it worthwhile. Michael is somewhat correct that one cannot build a single gas fueled melting furnace, one can use other ''hard'' fuel in combination. Yes, we did take our smelters from this community to the new one, for just these reasons.

They call iron the black metal for good reason. Ever wonder why the old timers beat it? By the then methods, they could not get hot enough to melt!

There is one design that I really like, but never gotten around to working with. Look at Lindsays ''little bertha'' electric, same construction. Look at the carbon arc ''flower pot'' designs next. Combined it would make a nice package. A little bertha with a carbon arc at the bottom. One simply melts out the lower melting point stuff, then fires up the arc for the higher temp material. But unless you make your own electric, it would eat you out of homestead.

Take care,

Majere.
skruzich
#5 Posted : Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:51:51 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Thanks majere, I have been taking my tin cans and using them to start plants from seeds in. I think i might get a few plantings from them before they rust out.
steve
michaels
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:51:51 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Steve,

Yes, I lurk, but am resurfacing.
Now that Majere is away, I don't have to worry about toe stepping.
And the metal question is is part of my earlier training.
I was a journeyman ironsmith, hammer and anvil type, but did some cast iron work for my ticket.

Are you using a Lindsay style charcoal furnace?
If so, you cannot handle 'tin' cans.
Those units cannot create enough heat long enough.
There are no tin cans today, the last ones were during the civil war.
Later tin cans were rolled sheet steel, with a tin flashing.
Today they are steel with enamel.
That charcoal furnace cannot produce the heat unless you find a way to supply it with a lot more fuel and air.

Majere took the big blaster furnace guts with him, and designed a smaller diesel propjet unit for the new enclave.
They built two of these propjet units.
We will no longer smelt our own, but send our material to the new enclave.[:(][:(!]

The big blaster is a propane/natural gas mix blowtorch unit.
It sits inside a crematorium.
On a pedistal, in the sealed vault, sits a hand bottom rammed carbon crucible.
This is formed using a five gallon pail for the outer mold, and a smaller plastic sleve to form the inner.
The finished crucible is filled with junk, the jet is aimed at the carbon crucible, and the junk is melted.
The metal is allowed to cool, the carbon crucible is broken away, to be ground and rerammed, and the layers of metal popped apart.
The metal stradia can usually be hammer and chisel cracked and popped apart.

The stradia levels are broken up and put into the propjet furnaces, the jet directed along the bottom of smaller one pint carbon crucibles, in a box, but the tops are open for skimming.
These crucibles are made using a one pint red clay pot as the mould. They sit nicely in the holder box.
When the metal is remelted and skimmed, these are thrown into ingot moulds for storage.
Skimoff goes back into the next big crucible.

I asked him why such an arrangement on the big melter and his answer was that all blast types released poisonous gasses.
Open tops have the same problem.
The sealed crematorium setup burns all but product to inert.

On the resell question, no resell market seems to exist.
All the industries want virgin metal.
Every so often we ship out a few truck loads to Newport News and the big ship building companies there.
This may change, an Amana enclave has indicated they will come to take any iron, tin, and copper ingots off our hands.
Reason: Cast iron pots, with copper or tin flashing, no seasoning required.
If a bullion metal, then the only legal customer is the government.
You get $0.20 or less on the dollar for gold.
Silver, etc, are worse.
Copper, Lead, Antinomy, Iron, Chromium, etc, we are happy to get $.6/$1.00.

I would suggest you revisit the Librum site, or the CD I sent you.
(still awaiting key code!)
There are metal sections, with metal melting tempatures.
I would also try the SACOF which is under construction on the website.
Don't overlook the Saxon indexes, as there were sections in there on smithing also.




On the plastics question, the secret is controlled heat.
Not too hot.
You need thermostats.
I think Majere told you of Gingery's Plastic Injection Moulding book.
But he did not use the cartridge heaters that Gingery used.
Gingery had to add a thermostat.
Majere found some with the thermostat built in.

On the shredding to make ingots, that was Gingery's system.
Majere had a lot of those cartridege heaters.
So he made a funnel slug maker.
A large metal funnel, with two heaters on it, and a reciever below with a heater on it.
We merely toss a bottle on top whenever we walk by.
It costs little to run, if kept running, but they really eat the energy firing up.
No more shredding.

I have observed that he uses nothing but soda bottles.
I suspect this is due to fumes and poisons.
I have also observed that he is religious about removing the labels.
I suspect this is for the same reason.
This is something you may want to consider when looking at your stash.
Just what poisons would you be releasing?

He has discarded the large landscaping log concept, he never figured out some of the problems.
Even with the big pizza oven, he never got a good pour or cast.
But we use the bricks for just about everything.
Red is resting on these bricks.
The moulds are breadpans with the heaters attached.
The bridge at Ridgerock is now mounted on such blocks, rather than brick or concrete.
The glue is from his heater equiped slug caulk gun.
Said glue is not needed, just for additional adhesion during construction.
He made sheet moulds the same way, for sheets of plastic.
And I know you know of the fishscale shingles.
All our non human habitated buildings are roofed in cast fishscale shingles, and a lot of them sided with the plastic sheets.
He did figure a way to dope the shingles, to make them to fire code specs, but never built any.[:)]
He did also figure a way to metal plate the fishscale shingles, the copper is very striking.
I don't think we have to worry about wearing those out.
I do know that he planned redesigning these into mini cupro solar cells, but never got to it.


Michael.
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