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Alternative Energy Sources Options
nicholasn2
#1 Posted : Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:38:15 AM
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Mother Earth & co really butched up the Minto machine. As i remember it is a 30 Foot diameter ferris wheel with eight sealed containers pipe connected diagonally.The containers are filled with that has a low boiling point such as propane,butane etc. The top of the ferris wheel is shaded and the bottom containers are heated via solar. As the liquid gets warm it is driven to the top container which in turn gets taken over by gravity. From then on as long as there is warmth for the liquid to boil to the top it will run till the bearings wear out, rust and fatigue takes the toll on the machine. Minto the brilliant man suggests it should yield around 5 strong horse power.
crwmdpmr
#2 Posted : Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:58:42 AM
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Since no one has rsponded yet I guess
I''ll start.

(please keep in mind I''d like this to
be a friendly exchange of ideas.)

1.Hydrogen:

Pros

fuel cells emit only water.

cons

too energy intensive to produce useable
amounts of hydrogen from water given
present tecnology.

Would proabably require twice the number
of electric plants in exsistance today to
produce from water.

using fossil fuels to produce hydrogen
by "stripping" will be wasteful. inefficeint,
and produce many more problems than it
will solve.

will demand new technology and infrasturture
and may end up in scrapping alot of old
infrastrure/distribution system.

Fuel safety issues.

not energy dense.

* I would reconsider my thoughts
on hydrogen if someone invents
safe clean fusion reactor.

2. Methane

pros

relatively clean

can be produced with biomass

harvesting biomass sources will
decrease methane released to air
which is a greenhouse gas source

cons

*hegding here, mainly I''m in favor of methane
produced from biomass being used. I don''t think
we could make enough methane to run erverything
though so I think it would be a great idea to
use methane as we do today, piped to buildings
to provide heat/hot water.

As a vehicle fuel source though problems
I see are safety and energy density.

3. Alcohols

pros

relatively clean.

nontoxic technology with in grasp of small time
producers.

some useful byproducts

could make use present technology and infrastructure

cons

require too much energy to produce
for the amount of enery yeilded.

produced mainly from annual crops
which contribute to fertilizer,
herbicide, pesticide use, and soil erosion.

not energy dense

Difficult to keep fuel dry enough to
prevent mechanical problems.

4. Biodiesel/vegetable oil

Pros

depending on the exact sytem used
can be produced very simply and
nontoxicaly with little energy input.

easy for small time producers

most efficeintly produced from
tree crops which are easier on
environment.

can use presently available
technology and infrastructure.
(some production vehicles today
are getting 100mpg with excellent
performance)

Can be very clean

very energy dense (i.e. energy is not
wasted in order to haul a tank of
fuel larger enough to give good range.)

diesel technolgy twice as efficeint as
iternal combustion but with fewer moving
parts.

diesel engines using biodiesel could easliy
run 500,000 plus miles with alot less
maintenance. (I only have to change the
oil every 20,000 miles in my VW)

as with all other biofuels will take more
CO2 out of atomsphere than are produced.

good for solar/up generator sytems

can be used for heating and cooking

cons

not as clean as some alternatives yet.

public acceptance

5. Solar Electicity

pros

clean

maybe cheap some day

cons

*here again I''m hedging. I think
solar electric systems are great
for lighting and many tasks, but
if you are tied to propane deliverys
for heating, refrigration, etc...
are you "really off grid"

May not work everywhere or during
certain seasons.

Production of solar cells can
release toxins.

electric storage issues.

6. Wind

most of same pros/cons of
solar plus people fighting
the installation of wind
farms due to eyesore factor.

7.Geothermal

Good for heat pumps othewise
available only in certain regions.

8. Hydro

can be clean

Ok for low impact installations

not available everywhere

problemns with impact of larger installations

9. Tidal

new technology

seems to have a high start up cost

10. Solar heating

attention to passive technology
well worthwhile.

location/season problems

may not be useful for all application
as described above.

11. nuclear

I feel about this the way I feel
about capitol punishment.

In theory there maybe a use for it,
but given the people who end up
in charge of it I have to say- NO!
crwmdpmr
#3 Posted : Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:03:33 AM
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Posts: 134,494
Sorry nicholasn2 you responed while I was working
on the above.

additional disclaimer I''m dyslexic so please be somewhat
tolerant of spelling erroes, errers, errors!
DanR
#4 Posted : Friday, November 07, 2003 3:10:21 PM
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Crwmdpmr:

Glad to meet someone else who is "blessed" with dyslexia. Having read through you reasons to be against alcohol, I have to disagree on some of your "problem" points. Alcohol can be produced from many nonfood crops, or in other words, weeds. In addition, the dryed matter left over from the extraction of the sugar can be used as the fuel to produce the energy needed to distill the alcohol. Mother, years back, had plans for a "tracking solar reflector" that they wanted to hook up to a steam engine. Thay also had plans for an "hot oil still". It should be possible to mate the two to produce alcohol. As alcohol "boils off" at a lower temperture than water, you do not need as much heat to produce it. Just as a side note, I did take Mother''s Alcohol Fuel Seminar and still have all the information I picked up there. I also have read portions of a book, published in 1907, that claimed that you could get two gallons of 200 proof alcohol from 12 average sugar beets with just 15% sugar content. At that rate, one half acre of sugar beets would produce well over the 3000 gallon limit one can produce here in the U.S. for their own use.

All fuel takes some energy input to make it usable. To "crack" oil takes large quanties of heat. There are now "co-generation" units that produce electricity and then use the heat for other purposes. As for methane, I have read that Portland, OR, is using methane from their waste water treatment plant to run electrical generators to run the plant, i.e. free energy, or almost free as there are some maintance cost for the generators.

You missed some of the pros for methane. What you get out of the "digester" after the methane has been collected is a very rich fertilizer. It is being used today in India and helping reduce that countries dependence on non-organic fertilizers. Methane is, for all intents and purposes, a closed solar system, co2 to co2 with plants doing all the work. As there are plans available for both "batch fed" and "continuous feed" digesters, there is no real reason not to be using it. As to its use, it will easily run any gasoline engine. And it is not more unsafe than the current crop of propane powered cars. How many of those have you seen reports of expolsions on inpact. Given my choice, methane would be first then alcohol.

Just my $.02 worth.
crwmdpmr
#5 Posted : Saturday, November 08, 2003 6:00:46 AM
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Again I''m in favor of increased bio-methane use.
As stated above I think it would be better to
use as a heat source. While there haven''t been
many problems with propane so far as Steve pointed
out on the hydrogen link you have to be certified
to fill propane and methane tanks. I can''t tell
you how many times I''ve seen people smoking and
filling up at the gas pump. Last time some lady
got out of the car with a lit cigarette in her hand
and walked over to talk to the guy filling up her tank.
I said something to her so she got miffed and walked
over to stand in from of the rack of propane tanks
the gas station sells for BBQs. While people like this
have been relatively lucky with this kind of behavior
around liquid fuels they won''t be around methane, propane,
or hydrogen. I can just hear the lawsuits now," -but nobody
told me it could explode like that....)

Again with the amount of propane needed for useful range
and an appropriate vehicular tank system you''ll have a
much heavier system.

Biodiesel fuel can be produced with just the energy
required to press the oil out of the seeds.

The yield for alcohol per acre just look pretty impressive
though.
nicholasn2
#6 Posted : Monday, November 24, 2003 3:38:55 AM
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CRWMDPMR , zink air batteries are half as big as lead acid batteries but store twice as much amps. A wind turbine will serve well for people who lack sunny days. Now , i can hardly wait for two more years when the europians will come out with solar cell at .20 cents a watt. Talk about being self sufficient!
practicalman45
#7 Posted : Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:22:53 PM
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Reading this topic, I coulnd''t help but think about a website I came across. They detail information about an automotive system that "splits or cracks" water into Hydrogen and Oxygen plus water vapor. This sounds too good to be true, and I don''t have the resources to experiment with it myself. The method described uses electronics, and a specially constructed chamber that generates the hyd/oxy mix for direct usage in internal combustion engines that are modified to tolerate the moisture. The only fuel required is water.
I know, this sounds too good to be true! Maybe this is worth checking out, maybe not...

http://educate-yourself....waterasfuel28jan02.shtml
skruzich
#8 Posted : Sunday, December 14, 2003 2:03:24 AM
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Posts: 134,494
One dumb question here i guess, what happens when we start using water for our vehicles?? Were in a shortage as it is, and since you cannot run water that has contaminates like ocean water, where do we get the water that is pure enough to run in our vehicles? More importantly, since water is in short supply, where do we get our drinking water if this is to take place?
Just came across my mind. I would say we will run out of usable water Long before we would run out of oil!
dropkick
#9 Posted : Sunday, December 14, 2003 5:53:49 AM
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Steve,
The way the engine uses water:
First run current through the water(H2O) breaking it into hydrogen and oxygen.
Then ignite the hydrogen. When the hydrogen burns it combines with oxygen creating water. Repeat.

You get power by using the expansion of the gases (caused by the heat of burning) to push some form of mechanical device (like a gas or diesel combustion engine does)

P.S. Water is the most abundant element on the planet. Finding clean potable water is our problem. If "we" had a clean cheap source of power (hydrogen engines\solar\etc.) "we" could set up desalinization plants and get our potable water from the ocean.(preceeding post script was sarcasm aimed at private industry and the government)
skruzich
#10 Posted : Sunday, December 14, 2003 2:10:38 PM
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Dropkick, They have some desalinization plants in florida, they cannot get rid of the by product. some had to shut down until they could find a place to put it. Also there is some problems apparantly with groups saying that its destroying some coral reefs and stuff. I have no idea on that.
VaughnHill
#11 Posted : Sunday, December 14, 2003 3:11:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skruzich

One dumb question here i guess, what happens when we start using water for our vehicles?? Were in a shortage as it is, and since you cannot run water that has contaminates like ocean water, where do we get the water that is pure enough to run in our vehicles? More importantly, since water is in short supply, where do we get our drinking water if this is to take place?
Just came across my mind. I would say we will run out of usable water Long before we would run out of oil!


There is no more or less water sense the flood. Water doesnt go anywhere that it doesnt end up coming back from.(Even with contaminated water)

The people on this ole earth will be long gone before we run out of drinkable water.
Apemanevo
#12 Posted : Monday, December 15, 2003 3:17:31 PM
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Vaughn...

"The people on this ole earth will be long gone before we run out of drinkable water."


If that were true, then why do so many people not have clean drinking water now?
dropkick
#13 Posted : Monday, December 15, 2003 9:27:30 PM
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Apemanevo,
The problem is the overuse of local water sources and not allowing them time to replenish.
There is more than enough drinking water.
There is a tremendous amount of potable water wasted (again in certain localities), people just don''t seem to want learn how to conserve, or to do it once they know. For example, lawns are a tremendous waste, and even those who live in areas were the water table is being dried out can''t seem to give them up, or at least minimize them.

VaughnHill
#14 Posted : Tuesday, December 16, 2003 7:10:17 AM
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thanks dropkick you have a happy holy day as well :)Are you a clan bother?

Apemanevo With about 400,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons of water on earth (326 million cubic miles) if they dont have clean drinking water then (a)their to poor too process it. (b)Not intelligent enough to find it. (c)to lazy to work for it

And if you really want to find fresh water, the most is stored in the 7,000,000 cubic miles of water found in glaciers and icecaps, mainly in the polar regions and in Greenland.
Digging
#15 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2003 4:36:46 PM
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Maybe we''ll end up using our own legs, and the horse and buggy!

I too have thought about this and hydro power seems to be the cleanest I can think of, BUT the biggest problem we have is perhaps we just use to much power right now? How much do we REALLY need? If we could majorly reduce our use then see what would best meet our furture needs?
Apemanevo
#16 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2003 5:06:24 PM
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If it needs to be processed before being drinkable, then it isn''t clean. Right?
Digging
#17 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2003 5:36:39 PM
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Well I''m not sure what you mean? How is Hydro power unclean? What kind of ''processing of drinking water are you talking about?
Also to keep things in balance we realize the cycle of life is a back and forth between ''pollution'' and ''clean-up'', but just on a smaller more managable scale.
VaughnHill
#18 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:38:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Apemanevo

If it needs to be processed before being drinkable, then it isn''t clean. Right?

Wrong! processing it could mean anything from digging a well to building a reservoir or a dam.
PDQ
#19 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:25:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by crwmdpmr

It seems eveybody has an opipion about
what the future holds for the energy supply.
I think it would be very useful for different
people to tell us what their pick for the
future is, but to also list the pros and cons
they foresee if their energy choice
comes to be in our future.

Just stating you like hydrogen, methane,
etc... is not enough; state your reasoning,
as well as be objective enough to list
some cons as well.

Let the debate begin!




The Eco-system as it is...right now... works. With the exception of people who have conventional wasteful septic systems, poor recycling habits, and general over use, misuse, or misunderstanding of the system. I have said it before on other posts. Unless I am not understanding something I dont see how the conservative use of electricity, is bad or wasteful(?)

Self reliance and/or self sustainability should aways be the goal of everyone. Growing as much of ones foods as possible. would solve 1/5 of the problem. Living in semi-underground homes would solve another 1/5 of the problem. Reducing the air pollution by improving feul emmission standards another 1/5. Compost waste matter= abother 1/5.

Personally, if most of the cars or oil disapeared or oil was restricted tomarrow I would get by just fine.




andydufresne
#20 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2003 2:07:25 AM
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Water seems to be in shortage in some places because we are tying up more and more of it.

My septic tank consumed 700 gallons. Every time I put water into it the same amount comes out but that 700 gallons is tied up forever. Same with food on the shelves. The more food we process the more water we tie up.
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