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New gas range Options
skruzich
#1 Posted : Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:55:48 PM
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Hick, uhmmm lets look at it this way, I would buy american in a heartbeat especially if it is cheaper in price. I believe in buying everything i can from our manufacturers, if it is avaialable and if the quality is there. If there isn''t any good quality, then they shouldn''t be in business.
If the peerless is good quality, I would get it.
steve
Garden Lad
#2 Posted : Friday, November 07, 2003 12:32:20 AM
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I agree with Steve 100% on this one.

As to the Explorer, note that they don''t deny the problems, merely try to shift the blame. In effect, they are saying the product has problems. Do you care what the cause of them is?
hick
#3 Posted : Friday, November 07, 2003 1:47:16 AM
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Thanks guys for the replies. I am with you all the way. Probably will go Peerless for that reason. The Italian job is an ISO9001 certified shop with good wages and health benifits. Their product fits our specs more closely than Peerless. I hope someone has some experience with the products or companies.
skruzich
#4 Posted : Friday, November 07, 2003 3:01:39 AM
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I never cared for that ISO9001 scam. It was only designed to try and keep americans out of the european market.
I am sorry though i haven''t got the experience with the product or the company.
bushwack
#5 Posted : Saturday, November 08, 2003 6:49:13 AM
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Assembled in USA. with parts, not entirely just the electronics, manufactured in Korea or Mexico or.. ????

Have you looked into your FORD LATLY?!?!?
skruzich
#6 Posted : Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:37:52 PM
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Bushwack i don''t have a problem with that. I do however have a problem with assembled, manufactured, ect ect in E. BF Egypt. If we were to close our borders, and lose access to those parts, we would just start manufacturing them again. Not a big deal there. At least with the assembly being here, somebody is working.
I firmly believe that if your employees will do the job, do it right, and the quality is there then you will succeed in this country no matter what the price is.
Best example i can think of is this one. Try Harley Davidson. The employees too responsibility and got the company away from the foreign owners after it was run into the ground, and now its making money. Heck theres a 2 year waiting list for a new Harley and it is made in the USA.
As for Ford and alot of the companies, the Unions have strangled whatever production they can out of the company driving them out of the country.
I do however know this for a fact, Ford has been using parts from germany, and other countries since the 1950''s. So it isn''t just a recent 20 year thing.
Anyway, Why not list how many things are made in the US these days.
steve
CRZ
#7 Posted : Saturday, November 08, 2003 3:13:22 PM
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Hick,

Who was you dealer? Why not take a look at www.backwoodssolar.com
and www.lehmans.com They carry a good seletion of stoves. You''ll get much better personal attention at Backwoods Solar. Talk with Scott. They answer their email. Good luck

Hope this helps!
skruzich
#8 Posted : Sunday, November 09, 2003 1:37:09 AM
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Posts: 134,494
i think these are gas appliances CRZ
hick
#9 Posted : Sunday, November 09, 2003 2:28:20 PM
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Thanks CRZ for the links. The first handle Peerless which is atleast formed and coated in Ill. I hope they have health care and retirement benefits. The second handles Heartland which are beautiful units hq. in Canada. Quite pricey too. As to the brewing discussion on U.S. vs offshore. Americans work harder and longer than anyone else. We are forced into mediocrity by stressed out management trying to adhere to schedules and budgets that are based mostly on either lies or bungled project management. Forced also to sacrifice our bodies, lives and our families for food, shelter and shareholder value. Stanley Tools and HD excluded. American workers can not compete with bussiness done in places where labor and environmental laws are either non-existent or ignored (ie China, Mexico). Biologically speaking there are three things essential to life: air, water and food. Everything else is a matter of comfort and entertainment. But if we screw up any of those three things, we will not survive. Our only recourse is not to do bussiness with companies who exploit people or continue to pollute those three things that are necessary to survive. We''ve lost our health benefits and our retirement plans can be dissolved without notice. While managers cut safety and staff to stay on track.
Peace,
Hick
out.
Sheila
#10 Posted : Sunday, November 09, 2003 6:42:36 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Um, I know we were more hours than Europeans, but I doubt we work longer hours than those folks in the Chinese and Mexican factories.
skruzich
#11 Posted : Sunday, November 09, 2003 8:41:59 PM
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I don''t know who works 40 hour weeks these days, I know when i was working, i ended up with 16 hour days for over 15 years. I did what was necessary to get the job done. So I can''t even imagine a 40 hour week.
Alot of problems of job loss is from plain ole greed of the Unions that strangle the companies. The companies out there are in business to make a profit. If they can''t make a profit then they have to find a way to do so.
You can''t make a profit to pay the expected wages unless something gives in the process. When the employees are making x number of dollars and the company has to compete against a cheaper product, then 1 of 3 things have to go. That is 1. employee wages are cut (which won''t happen) 2. Produce more product (employees want more money to do this) 3. layoffs occur.
Its a catch 22 so what happens usually is that companies are moving operations overseas where they don''t have to deal with unions, high wages, and shorter hours.
What i would do if i were in charge of such a company is to remove the hourly wage, put the employee on a production wage, and eliminate unions, set a deal where if employees exceeded their product output/quality output ect then that would earn them a % more in production pay. Have a base pay per item, 2%more for quality improvement 2% more for exceeding your quota, ect.
What would happen is that you would have employees that would make more money in the long run by the amount of work they put into the process. Also if they figured out a way to cut labor and increase production and quality then they would basically give themselves a raise.
Bottom line is I buy american when i can, but if the product i am wanting is japanese and it is better quality and cheaper than the american product, I will have to go that way, jobs or no jobs.
The blame for job loss must be shared by employees, and employers equally. It takes both to make a product.
steve
hick
#12 Posted : Sunday, November 09, 2003 11:38:37 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Thanks Steve for your invaluable insights. I''ve had both employees and employers - both suck. But has anybody had any experience with either Peerless or Pioneer stoves. I''ll check back.
skruzich
#13 Posted : Monday, November 10, 2003 1:49:27 AM
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Posts: 134,494
Hey hick,
Have you asked them for references? Places you can go to see one in real life operation?
Thats what i would do
steve
hick
#14 Posted : Monday, November 10, 2003 1:49:27 AM
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Posts: 134,494
We're wondering if anyone has had any experience dealing with either Peerless of Belleville, Ill. or Explorer of San Diego, Ca.. The BBB talks bad about Explorer, Explorer blames their italian suppliers. The supplier's web site is slick and they been in business a long time. A product they sell meets our specs but we're afraid of doing bussiness with someone with so many BBB complaints and Explorers web site is a little sloppy (when you try the "contact us" button, it spits back "Invalid address"). A couple of other problems too. Peerless has a product that comes close to our specs but sacrifices would have to be made. The price is lower though and they are made in America by a company with a long history. The BBB loves them. We need a 36" stainless free standing range with some gormet cooking features but without all the popular electronic gadgetry that would doom it to a short life. More data is necessary.
Assistance would be appreciated.
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