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Stone Splitting Options
skruzich
#21 Posted : Wednesday, June 04, 2003 1:25:38 AM
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ROTFL Pate that makes my day ;) I loved working with explosives. Its exhilerating when you work hard like that and getting everything ready to put the mixtures together, wiring them up together and it all comes down to the moment when you hook the two leads to the battery and push the button.
:) I guess it takes a certain type to do that kind of work. I quit it after a couple years because of the nasty nasty migrains i got from handling the dynomite. I know it was from the nitro that was sweating off of the sticks but it even went through the plastic gloves i used.
Up until december last year, i tood nitro for my heart for over 10 years and i finally got tired of the headaches and told the doctor no more.
Sheila
#22 Posted : Wednesday, June 04, 2003 2:59:13 AM
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I think Jeff would be honored to be the official MEN forum "mad bomber." Sounds right up his alley.
coastal hermit
#23 Posted : Thursday, June 05, 2003 11:49:14 PM
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I just called an old Alaskan miner friend and asked him about ANTI. "Hoo-whee! Don''t tell the old lady what you are doing and expect to lose a few fingers! Save yourself some limbs, Dave, and stick to dynamite. It''s safer. Anti is good stuff when you are playing with little bits but, use too much, and you are in for a surprise. Not me."
So, I believe you Pate. I really do. But there may be a little more comfort from your experience than I can generate from my lack of it. I''ll either get one of them new DR pocket reactors and nuke everything in my path or I''ll resort to hiring the local coven.
skruzich
#24 Posted : Friday, June 06, 2003 1:47:21 AM
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Hey jdc, If i am not mistaken, and from what i remember about my chemistry, the iodine crystals do not become reactive until you add the amonia to it and let it dry. So by dipping a crystal into the ammonia and dropping it into the hole won''t detonate it, until it dries and you drop the rebar down the hole. Am i correct on this pate???? IF thats so, you shouldn''t lose fingers, just remember to handle the crystals with disposable gloves and remove the gloves before handling another batch.
Otherwise the residue from the one you just did could stay on your hands and when it drys it can cause some serious pain ;)
coastal hermit
#25 Posted : Friday, June 06, 2003 4:16:52 AM
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It''s that ''pain'' thing I am trying to avoid. I may prefer back pain (from hard work) to stark screaming ''let me die'' pain from suprise amputaions. Been there. Don''t like it. Still, the ''lazy'' in me says, "convince me."
pate20135
#26 Posted : Friday, June 06, 2003 5:16:03 AM
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Steve,

Sorry no earlier reply. I donated last nights air time to one of the Rabbis on the team. Family crises, which made his fragile health even worse. It looks like I may be escorting him home to NYC and then returning.

I too suffered from ''nitro head''. From handling the sticks in my youth. Without gloves. No migranes, I stopped before that point. Correction: I was ordered to stop before that point. My path was preset. But I, too, loved the work. My speciality was cutting doorways with a sprial charge, and other timed shots. Somehow I inately understood fuse timing and did not have to resort to pencil and paper.

And you are correct, ANTI is unstable, DRY. One could store the crystals in solution. But they will ''paste''. But even so, the old timers would not mix until need. Simple effective safety. And yes, that is why you ''charge'' the hole wet.

In reference to your emails.

Crystals from a ''horsey'' country general or feed store. Tincture of Iodine. The regent grade ammonia I buy direct from chemical suppliers, but you can get it via any ''butterfly hunting'' organizations, it is considered the quickest and most humane. That is how my father got his.

Come ahead, we have lots to sell you at our little roadside stand. (smile). In reality, we need the tourists, but not touristas. I hate to admit it but we do. Generally I avoid being visible. Not that I mind having my picture taken, but they are so darn rude about it. Perhaps thee should come in autumn, that is when the tours start up, with the ''model'' home and farm tour. Off season tourism, to include hay rides and halloween specials.

Thee won''t offend me with the questions. You are o.k. My ''peeve'' is the, err..., ''city advantaged'' out of the DC metroplex. Touristas.

But thee won''t find the Librum unless you ask. So if thee does come, stop at the roadside ''tourist trap'', and ask directions to the Gnostic Patriarchs study. If thee says ''Librum'', they will classify thee as tourista. And nod to the deputies, they seem to live there, our version of a donut store. Why would thee be so classified? A newspaper did a very nice writeup, but we got bussloads of touristas. Some damage to the roads, and the Winnebegos did not fit too well in our covered bridges. Have a four-wheel. Don''t expect much, compared to a big city library. Only 2400 square foot. And the ''toilet'' is out back.

No, no books allowed in the ''toilet''.

As for your ''proposed'' experiment, the compound specified is a class B explosive, and you need a class A for that work. And the initiator specified is a class C, when it should be a class J (like ANTI). I use the Lentz catagory system, that is what I learned. The difference between an A and a B is the ''cutting'' power. Think of the OKC bombing. Look how much of that class B compound had to be used, and then realize that the concussion did almost all the damage. If you do not have a live FFL, forget it. Federales. If it were me, I would be making some phone calls, here one can order a ''pullout'' of up to 15 cubic yards, and they will actually pay you some back if it is an arnmamental, like most granites.

On your interest of tinctures, get a copy of Dicks. 1873. A reciept book. Several have reprinted it. ''Patent'' medicines of the day, etc. We hope to have a copy up on the site in about two years. "Dicks Encyclopedia of Practical Preceipts and Processes". Our best copy is a reprint by Funk and Wagnel. 0-308-10157-X. Yes, I brought a copy with me. Too darn useful.


------
Hermit,

How much for a DR Reactor? I could use one of those! (SEG) Hmmm... A tourista zapper... Using one of the covered bridges as a shell. That would be some country entertainment! We could be another Roswell! I can see the tabloids now, ''Bridge eats Winnebegos!''

While I like the concept behind such vehicles, will the owner/drivers ever learn the size/weight?

As for ''the local coven'', careful, I know we have (at least) one ''practitioner'' in here. (friendly wave). There is actually a real coven grove on the east side of our mountains. Good people, individually, but I freely admit I don''t feel comfortable around them. In fact, several have used our little Librum. We have a lot of ''old time reciept'' books. Herbs, and the like, are definately not my field. But I respect the results I have seen. Let me repeat, as individuals, great people, my discomfort is religious.

This may strike you as funny, but I was trained to trust ANTI over dynamite. You can tell with a glance the stability (or lack thereof). One of my ''worse'' experiences was watching an old hand take a stick out of a new case, and boom. The stick had sweated, but you could not tell by sight.

---------

Sheila, If he wants the mantle, it is his!

--------------------

All take care, I have much catchup to do...

Pate


StreetLegal
#27 Posted : Friday, June 06, 2003 6:13:49 AM
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ajortolani:

May I suggest: before you resort to sandblasting, you may want to look into soda blasting. Soda is very fine yet very sharp. It won''t be as apt to damage the rock. Sand is very course in comparison and will cut the rock surface, as well as the mortar. With soda, they say you can strip the labeling off a beer can without damaging the aluminum. Soda does cost considerably more money.

I use a wet-blaster where possible. In case you aren''t familiar with it, it is a sand blast attachment that is used in conjunction with a pressure washer. This creates an effective, powerful blaster. The upsides are relatively low cost, effective cutting, and no dust.

Downside is that you have to deal with the waste-water.

Good luck.
ajortolani
#28 Posted : Thursday, June 12, 2003 9:29:01 PM
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Pate20135: I''m a very satisfied customer of Mother Earth News Library & don''t know who any of those people you mentioned are. As to our "little" project: My chimney in the 2nd floor & ceiling is brick, downstairs in the living room a large stone fireplace was built. From the looks of the craftsmanship in this house the old Italian craftsmen did everything well and nothing in the house has moved an inch in 80 years though they must have had an "outsider" do the brick work on the chimney as that is the only damage in the entire house. As I said, that is crumbling, the stone fireplace is excellent. My husband & I have continued researching & asking questions of a local mason we know who explained to us how porous the stone & mortar is and that it has probably absorbed too much of the various paints my father-in-law used over the years to warrant restoration. Also, the sandblasting actually removes the stone''s finish & actually makes it all even uglier! My hubby did try in a small area (before we knew that) & that is exactly what happened, and the absorption of paint is also very true. I think that it''s a shame as the stone work is really very nice, though I believe it was painted to begin with because the soot etc, had already dirtied all the stone work - not to mention how much dad-in-law loved to paint, especially if it was free!!!
We are now contemplating our next step on whether to knock it all down & build something we love or keep it and lay a fake or flat stone (or tile) over what is already there. In the meantime we''ll probably end up painting over the ugliness (the mess we made)until we have decided on which course to take!
As for your query on the moisture: The downstairs of this cottage was literally built into the side of the mountain using the stone that came out of the hole they blew. Our entire mountain is granite so I guess it''s granite walls. Anyway, the humidity at this time of year is disgusting, and the downstairs gets a ton of mould - it''s everywhere! I have walked into the kitchen and found a pool of water on the floor, mopped it up & found it there again within hours. On the other side of my living room wall & under the floor is solid earth. Upstairs has never had that problem & is always dry, that''s where the cinder block walls are plus the 2nd floor is above ground. So there are a lot of good masonary paints available now which is what we are planning on using, also, if we ever get to putting in a new floor over our concrete slab (which has outdoor "grass" carpeting as that is the only thing that was unaffected by the moisture) then hopefully a vapor barrier will be efficient in eliminating my pools!
I hope that all cleared up your questions, Thanks for your interest.
Streetlegal: Thanks to your suggestion but I really don''t think we''ll be doing it.
skruzich
#29 Posted : Friday, June 13, 2003 12:12:28 AM
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You might use a dehumidifier and divert the water outside, it will dry up the basement real quick.
steve
pettie
#30 Posted : Friday, June 13, 2003 6:17:39 AM
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I''ve been reading this post with interest.. I want to eventually have a granite countertop but I''d love to do it myself.

Pate, you are amazing !!

[:D]
pate20135
#31 Posted : Friday, June 13, 2003 11:57:15 AM
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ajortolani

Call me Pate. A respectful nickname, like ''doc''. Patriarchs often tack on the zip code to help identify each other. Normally we don''t use first or last names in our work, in some ways we are very starchy about formality. I often have to repress a chuckle when addressed has ''Herr Doctor Patriarch''. Besides, my name, translated, is not very ''nice'' or ''PC''. Call me Pate.

I admit curiosity about the name you use. Italian?

Heidi is the ''sparkplug'' of TMEN, and Bryan the senior editor of all of Ogden Publications. And like you, am satisfied customer. They may be a bit disappointed in me, though, this mission has kept me from doing some research for them.

Thy reply did clear up some things. Admittingly I am still guessing, but the brick, is it ''off color'' or locally manufactured? Sounds like a ''lowest bidder'' situation, as the brick sounds as if it was improperly fired or glazed. Actually, my ''feel'' for this is that it is a localy produced unglazed with the PH of the clay not compensated for. This happerns more often than I care to think about. Yes, I am afraid there is little to be done, if this is the case, other than replacing. I have seen some beautiful homes suffer this. If so, I am so VERY sorry. If so, also get a chimney smith to redesign, for draft purposes, thee might be surprised how much moisture control a good draft provides, winter or summer.

As to the moisture, if granite, glassification is not an option. I would experiment a bit with a heavy silicate stucco, glazing with a propane torch. See if thee can get good ''stick''. But somehow I doubt if granite. I suspect ''field stone'', which is porous, and can be glassified in most cases. The process is called ''glazing'', and is labor and $ intensive. But if glazing will not do the trick, neither will the ''superpaints''.

As to the paint on the fireplace ''front'', the mason seems to have it right, I suspected a porous field stone, and, yes, the paint would have worked its way in. Yes, such painting for soot control is quite common, but we use ''milk paint'', for washability. Such ''milkpaint'' is the origional ''non-stick''. I wish I were in the Librum, I would be looking up the faux finishes for you. The old timers would build a firefront with whatever stone was at hand and faux it later.

StreetLegals suggestion of soda blasting is new to me. It makes sence. When I get back I am going to look into this. We often have ''greasy'' equipment to clean, and that sounds like a good idea.

I would also use Steves point with a dehumidifier. But I would go him two better. First would be the chimney smith. Then I would also add a small humidifier, one of the little tank types, with the rotating felt roll membrane. I would then get the ph ballenced chlorine tablets, often marked ''atmosphere safe'', in the little tank. Mold and Mildew are impossible to get out unless you get an active kill agent into play. Ahem, I say again, PH ballenced chlorine tablets, not the pool stuff. I would NOT get a ''mister'', they concentrate too much agent in ''dead'' areas, and you would be walking into ''gas clouds'', oxygen deprevation. I would also get on the web and go to epa.gov. I don''t remember the urls, but they have free publications on such work. (/iaq/pubs/ ?) The one you really want is titled something like ''Biological Pollutants in the Home'', and it gets down to the nitty-gritty of cleanup, written for flood repair.

Sorry I did not have any ''silver bullets'' for thee.

------------------

Pettie,

Trying to turn my head with compliments? (chuckle)

Thee may asking for grief with that marble top idea. Unless thee buys ''natural'' split slab, which costs multiples over the commonly available stuff. Most ''yuppie'' or ''cut'' slab is not ecologically friendly in the production/cutting. Natural split slab will wear forever, but is never ''true''. Cut slab, well, I have seen several such replaced. The cutting heat destroys much of the wearability. It destroys the ''tempering'' of the stone. And stone has ''thermals'' in the structure, so ''soft'' spots are created throughout the slab from the cutting heat. I can show you some very damaged (and replaced) countertops. In one case, the owner used it for butchering work of chickens, the knives actually scored the granite, easily. In another case, the ''soft spots'' were polished out, over time, and it looked like ''lunar surface''. In every case, the replacement was locally fired compositions. And yes, I have been fooled by several composition ones. I have plans to replace the ''formica'' topping the good wife absolutely had to have with marble tiles. Yes, you can get natural splits, very cheaply, six or eight inches on the side, square. And I have some tried and true coloring and hardening compounds and formulas for the grout. I redid her 4 foot by 4 foot roll-around kitchen ''island'' that way, with tiles below and the whole ''overglazed''. She loves it, so the other counters are definately on the ''honey must do'' list. (smile).

Back to work, have more books to bag and gas charge. The work continues, we hope to be finished by the end of the month.

Take care,

Pate
coastal hermit
#32 Posted : Friday, June 13, 2003 7:30:40 PM
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I went back up to my site to ''really look'' at the granite. I stared at it. But didn''t come away with any insight. There is no question that there are ''layers'' there but the layers are coming at me - like looking at the levels of a cake after having cut out a piece. It certainly is not layered conveniently like say, a sliced loaf of bread. I cannot imagine how to ''use'' the layers to my quarrying advantage. Nor do ''steps'' appear to be there ''in the rock'' somewhere (and all I have to do is remove what is unnecessary).
I am curious - has anyone actually ''cut'' steps from a large monolith? Or is it....smash it up and then mortar pieces together?
pate20135
#33 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2003 4:02:13 AM
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Hermit,

Steps can be cut, or split. Split is better, by forced wedges or explosive. Blasting against the grain is a job only for the experts, and even then with a low success rate. The rock has its own ''mind'' and ''set'', as thee has learned. Yes, have done it, but very labor intensive.

Layer cake type layers? Hmmm, most likely a ''dome'' and thee is looking at a side. I would go out there with a small air hammer, one of the automotive ''gun'' types, (air chisel?), and see if I could force a layer split, and see where the ''up'' faults are. Both ''gun'' and compressors are rentable. And then if you can force a fault, a good place for ANTI.

If unforceable, I would then visit the local volunteer fire department for one of the gas powered saws to cut the sides, then chisel/blast out, using the layer faults. Such would be more estheticly pleasing to me, more natural looking.

Additional thought, just how rough is the surface? If rough enough to hold concrete or other composition steps, look at that. I personally, if forced to this extreme, would still drill to set rebar to anchor said steps. Such ''sacrificial'' steps are often done for a ''temporary'' stair in quaries. The trick is to drive the rebar, then put ''pour boxes'' in, with plastic line the ''box''. Same as with some concrete slab pouring where you lay down plastic and pour on top, the rebar sticking through the plastic. Another tip, if thee is forced to go this route, color the composition with the crushed stone.

Pate
coastal hermit
#34 Posted : Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:22:07 AM
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I am likely to go the ''boxed concrete'' way. Concrete and I have a passing but working relationship: I don''t mess with concrete unless I have to and it cooperates albeit reluctantly and stubbornly - and only if I keep my demands small. I have pushed the envelope (form) enough times to know that once a fluid batch gets out of hand, it''s like lava - get out of the way and start planning how to use the new ''lump''. Having said all that, I have to hand mix one bag at a time (and carry in the water) and that was why I was looking for a quicker way. Why did you call them''sacrificial''? Because - in a quarry - they were doomed to go the way of all stone? Btw, I have screwed my courage to the sticking post and hidden my intentions from my wife (no sense having to waste courage in THAT debate) and I am going to mess around with ANTI. I''ll keep you posted but, in this case, no news is NOT good news. Could mean my typing fingers are in bad shape.
skruzich
#35 Posted : Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:23:19 PM
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JDC, Just remember when using the anti, to not mix it up until you need it and don''t get impatient. The crystal will have to dry before it will react to a compression strike.
From what i remember of my chemistry, approximately 4 grams will split a small rock. That isn''t much believe me. that would be 1/7 of a ounce. and 1 ounce would do some real damage. I am guessing you would have to experiment with some small boulders to get a feel for how much it would take to do what you want. I would suggest practicing first with different amounts only incrementing the amount 1 gram at a time til you get the amount that will fit your need. Oh and I have one question, once you start blasting, won''t your wife hear the booms ;)GRIN
skruzich
#36 Posted : Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:25:50 PM
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Heres another news item i heard yesterday. Strike up another one for the police state of Georgia. The governor of georgia has signed into law that it will be a felony to posses Ammonia. It seems that Ammonia can be used to make meth and he thinks this will stop the drug from being made.
I am not sure but I think its in amounts greater than 1/2 gallon.
pate20135
#37 Posted : Monday, June 16, 2003 1:48:29 AM
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Hermit, what Steve says is true. A little goes a long way. Please take care. But then you are a big boy and won''t take unnecessary risks. (smile) [B)]

As to sacrificial, they are normally used on a temporary basis. Normally such are set on the side of slabs, but then the slab is split away for the stone. Safer than using rock climbing gear. I seem to remember there is also an osha requirement.

I have often wondered why plastic sheeting. At first I though it was to keep the concrete in, but then I noted that it was the ''biodegradeable'' plastic. Perhaps to allow water to seep between, and when freezing occurs, to allow the ''pod'' to ''float''? Oh, I forgot to mention, the rebar is sleeved in pvc, above the plastic, for those that are not so sacrificial.

Steve, "We will fix the problem by creating a law." Your governer is just getting headlines, as it is already on an unenforceable precurser list. Regent grade ammonia is on the ''number 5'' DEA precurser list. But if memory serves me correctly, you have to be in possession of five of the ''fifth'' list to get a misdaemeaner. It did not and does not stand in a court of law. ''Intent''. I had a lot of amusement on reading that list, a few years ago. Any ''english'' housewife would go automatically to jail, and ALL farmers. Unenforceable. Did the article state what formats? NaCl is also on that list. [8]

Take care,

Pate
coastal hermit
#38 Posted : Monday, June 16, 2003 1:52:34 AM
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Tragically, our governments seem bent on ''regulating'' as if that, in itself, will fix all the problems. But ''regulating'' has never worked and, in a way, only serves to foment more dissent. Up here in the great white North, we seem to rely on rules and regulations more than we should. ''Let''s make a rule'' assumes that people will obey it and that accidents or exceptions never happen. I just don''t get theat mentality - it''s like a form of disassociation with reality. Anyway, it''s getting worse. I urge you to resist and dissent at all times - though politeness and good humour make it easier to get the message across. I have to admit - it seems like the US is more restrictive than we are. There''s a ''zero tolerance'' and ''confiscation'' and ''jail ''em or shoot ''em first'' kind of stories always being reported. But I trust the media even less so who knows? Thanks for the ''heads up''. I may go out and buy all that stuff just in case.
Yeah, Sally will hear the ''booms''. But, by then, it''s too late - I am armed and dangerous.
pate20135
#39 Posted : Monday, June 16, 2003 2:00:00 AM
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And then Sally will come gunning for me? She will have a bit of a journey. (smile)

As for ''regulation'' law, that is now facing a battle in court in the state of Virginia. Regulations are not laws, even if enacted by laws, according to what I read of the plaintiffs case.

Pate
williamsson
#40 Posted : Monday, June 16, 2003 3:41:00 PM
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fyi, on the iodine crystals, you can always purchase them at a backpacking/outdoor products shop (mine came from REI!). . . Iodine crystals are also used for purifying water
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