Logged in as: Anonymous Search | Active Topics |

2 Pages 12>
Arctic Greywater Options
pate20135
#1 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:44:36 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494

Greywater, or blackwater? Septic is blackwater.

Do you know the, errr..., ''permaflost'' level yet? To get any septic to work effectively, it has to be deeper than that level. That can take some major work and major $$$. In some areas is is very deep.

And from my notes, when in Greenland, thee does want separate systems. The greywater for the garden or hydroponics. We had hydroponics.

If push comes to shove, for the short term, for ''black'', ''diesel burn barrel privy''. Benefits include very easy cheap to make, able to place in home, then roll out to burn, and the burned ash is great fertilizer. No, diesel not required, or any other fossil fuel for that matter, just light a good fire in it.

Take care,

Pate
scriven
#2 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:31:33 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
The greywater can also be used for flushing a flush toilet too, this has been mentioned in other threads here.

As a replacement for your septic, have you though about composting humanure?
There''s a book called "The Humanure handbook", which you may find interesting. If you have a local library, they''ll probably be able to get a copy, but if all else fails it''s available online (full content) here: [url]http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html[/url]
Apemanevo
#3 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 6:55:48 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
It is going to be difficult to design a greywater system that will work well in Alaska, unless you are in the FAR south. Before you use the water on a garden, it is best to filter it through aa constructed wetland, with enough volume to handle 5 days of effluent. If you do not have much waste water to treat, one potential system is to use a "mulch box" indoors. A mulch box is a large box with a deep mulch of bark, leaves, etc with sowbugs, milipedes, etc living in it. These help eat the food scaps and the mulch captures the soap residue. These are usually kept outdoors, so they naturally are colonized by these creatures. You could build an indoor wetland "earth engine" but it would need considerable glass coverage and a heat source...

BTW - you should only use biodegradable soap with no sodium laureth nothin'' in it when relying on a greywater system.
skruzich
#4 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 6:59:46 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Hey scriven, I mentioned something like that to the local health department since they are the ones who control whether or not you get a building permit. I was looked at like I had committed the cardinal sin. They said promptly and without reservation, NO. They would not issue me any kind of permit til i had a proper septic system in and if they found anyone that was composting human waste, they would condemn the property and call the EPA to clean it up. They told me that they wouldn''t allow outhouses anymore either.
Your going to find that that is one subject that you will recieve a ton of opposition too.
Pate did have a idea that would work good, and that was to burn it first. The ashes would make for good fertilizer since it would be purified by the fire leaving the most basic elements of which mainly is carbon.

I am only saying this to warn anyone that before doing something like this, to check the health department and see if it would be allowed. It would really bite if you did it and they came along after getting a complaint and took your property by condemning it.
This is one thing i believe that you need to getting permission is easier than getting forgivness.
steve
lunailoniafaer
#5 Posted : Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:53:57 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
We''re putting in a blackwater system in a couple of years or so, for now we were going to put in a graywater system.


>>I mentioned something like that to the local health department since they are the ones who control whether or not you get a building permit.
Since I''m not building within a borough, there are no regulations,permits,ect. that are in place. Thank God :)

About a quarter of the households up here don''t have running water, so outhouses here are still very popular.
I''m digging up some plans I had for a raised privy- you walk up the steps to the seat, and underneath is a 55-gallon drum. Now since I''ve read all these replies, I think I''ll burn the contents of the barrel rather than dump it :)

Most people with cabins in the hills up here just use biodegrateable soaps, and have a pipe running about 20 or so feet away from the house down the valley.

That doesn''t seem very responsible to me though- so I was thinking of just plopping in a tank?

As far as permafrost goes, I wouldn''t buy property that had it- ours has been fully surveyed, and contains no ice wedges, and no permafrost-otherwise it would be almost ipossible to build either.

So a water-waste system rather than human waste iss more of what I''m looking for- I''m sorry I didn''t clarify- but yall have given me just a *heap* of ideas!
Apemanevo
#6 Posted : Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:47:22 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Where in Alaska are you building? My family lives just outside of Fairbanks...
pate20135
#7 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:55:29 AM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Luna,

My sources say there is not a single area of the USA that does not have such regulations. Best check again! Maybe not enforced, but there. Be sure before the area gets ''yuppie'' and forces thee to rebuild. I have seen that many times.


Apemanevo''s mulch box thing above will work, but we call it a ''sawdust toilet''. Some odor issues.

Glad thee is in a ''non-permafrost'' area. That makes it much easier, especially if thee ''digs in'' the home. But there is still the seasonal ''freeze down'' that must be considered. The septic field must be below that. Oh, and another memory, the ''corrigated black drainage'' pipe, and the PVC/CPVC pipe will not serve in that environment, cold=brittle. Metal fares better, but not by much. Terra-cotta is the way to go, but thee has to drill it.

A ''modern'' english incinerator toilet may also be the answer for thee. I dislike such, as it is too modern for my tastes, but simply having a stool with a 20 lb propane tank may be ''just the ticket'' to keep the privy indoors. (Chuckling, I just had to get a splinter out of one of my ''charges'' backsides. Why do little girls have to ''squirm'' seats?)

As to the ''burn out'' type, no outhouse is needed! It''s thy bum, if thee takes my meaning. The best one I have seen was in Greenland, in officer quarters. It was made from a 33 gal drum, with the center cut out, and the ends rejoined at comfortable ''sitting'' height. Bottom end was ''bunged'' but the top end was ''lid'' with the ring. The ring end had a store bought seat, direct glued, with a ''trap'' cut in. The trap was hinged, up, and plates tack welded on, to hold gasket, for odor blockage. The whole thing was on wheels, from a portable generator (?) set. (Actually, I think it came from a pressure washer, but unsure.) When full, it was simply rolled out, the ''lid'' removed, and lit. When the fire was done, then the bung was removed, and the barrel rinsed out in the garden. Replace the bung, and lid, and wheel it back in. Additional note, there were warnings on them not to have them within ten feet of a heat source. (chuckle)

Now on the grey water... Is thee contemplating a ''green house'' or ''hydroponics'' system? If so, that is thy answer, the greywater goes there. And if green house, put a ''mini'' leech field directly under, this encourages the earthworms and the like to come ''up''.

Thinking of earthworms. Check to see if thy area is one of the ''banned'' areas. Some parts of the US do not have ''native'' earthworms, and it is a felony, federal, to introduce them. Check the Wall Street Journal for the last few days, it was on page 1.

If hydroponics, then get the books NOW. And start lining up the chemical suppliers NOW. And look at the seeds, especially the specialized hydroponics types NOW. Plan ahead, as supply will be more difficult there. The Inet is the best resource.

Will the have mail? Bush flyer? Electric? Generator? Can thee drive in? These all must be figured into thy plans. For example, I understand that bush flyers will not carry gasolene or diesel or lamp oil, but will carry full propane cannisters. But then one cannot mail cannisters, but can mail, with special restrictions, gasoline, and lamp oil. Lots of things thee needs to think about.


Take care,

Pate
lunailoniafaer
#8 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:41:32 AM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
>>My sources say there is not a single area of the USA that does not have such regulations.
They are not in place outside the different bouroughs-Outhouses,greywater,and simple flood systems of waste removal are all endorsed by the state, if used in outlying rural areas.

As for the different matierials- I''ve never heard of terra cotta or metal being used up here-all the homeowners I know just have the plain black PVC pipe. DO you know where I could get product info on the terra cotta?

It''s only about 18 miles out of the bourough,drive in, and we have phone, power and such.

There are so many remote native villages up here, there really can''t be many regs in place because our governmant can''t afford to enforce them :)

I like your ideas about using household waste in the garden- I''ll just make sure to use only biodegrateable soaps :)
Apemanevo
#9 Posted : Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:56:24 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Terra Cotta in Alaska would disintegrate quickly due to freeze and thaw cycles.
pate20135
#10 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2003 3:08:51 AM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Thank thee Apemanevo. I am basing my responses on my Greenland experiences. I had not thought of the freeze/thaw cycle, in Greenland it is ''permafrost''. And if the other locals can and do use the black pipe, by all means, go with the flow. (grin).

Terra cotta is baked clay. Think of the ''old mexico'' roof tiles.

Luna, a tip, go back into the eighties, the ''Biospheres''. Integrated home, greenhouse, solar heater, and solar still (and usually much more, such as early PV, methane plants, etc). There are scads of such plans. Also, if thee can find a copy of issue TMEN #20, pg 62, there was a blackwater system that treated with living algae, breaking to methane and garden solids.

Just a minate... Yes I thought so. Drop me thy address in an email, I have a damaged and unsaleable duplicate copy of #20. If thee gives it a good home, I will send. And is a muted apology for the piping gaff.

Take care,

Pate

lunailoniafaer
#11 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2003 5:45:31 AM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Heheh I thought about the terra cotta thing- our freezing thawing cycles are insane-believe it or not Fairbanks, Alaska has one of the most fluxuating (sp?) temperature ranges. I''ve ran to feed the dogs when it''s -70F and laid in the sun unable to move when it''s 100F!

Many thanks to your offer for the back issue- I''ve been trying to stock up on them:)


pate20135
#12 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2003 7:34:37 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Luna,

If stocking up, check EBay. I haunt it looking for our missing special issues. Also Amazon. Same handle/name there. There is supposed to be an anthology being released in/at issue #200, on cdrom. That might also be the ''best way''. I look forward to that one, I sent quite a few dupes back to TMEN for that work. It may well ''destroy'' my collection. And if as good as I suspect, that CD will have folks dumping collections on EBay.

I did not find an email. Look above the messages, there are icons. One is ''email poster''. Issue is ready, in a PM folder, stamped, just need address.

And hit the link in my signature. I have built, for my own Librum, and others a master index to TMEN, and some indexs on related.

And yes, I do have a ''dupes'' list under the faq section. Not soliciting, but if thee gets stuck on a particular issue... I usually advice folks to contact Heidi at TMEN, there is a article duplication service.

(which reminds me, I need to get back to town and get copies of some Lifestyles back to Heidi, forgot about that. I am hoping that TMEN also CD''s all the specials. There is a ''standing offer'' that they can borrow anything to do so.)

Take care,

Pate
skruzich
#13 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2003 7:49:10 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
You know pate, I don''t know what issues you are missing, but I have almost every issue since TMEN reorganized and restarted the magazine after the bankruptcy. If i end up moving i am not going to have room for the Big box of issues i have. Meanwhile, I found out the other day, I had paid up my subscriptions til may of 2011. hehe, I kept getting bills back a few years ago, and just paid them never thinking that i had subscription paid up.

Shoot i wish they had a life membership available.
steve
pate20135
#14 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2003 11:18:23 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494

Steve,

We have all standard issues, the only things we are looking for are some specials. And plans, and records, RARE. How does thee think I created the index? (grin)

And quite a few dupes. That information is on the pages.

Unless you have some of those specials, which I will most happily accept. Our SOP is to trade for the specials missing when we find them, or duplicate/digitise and return.

Thee is going to need them, even if the CD is going to be as good as I expect.

I thought there was still a ''lifer'' subscription.

Ah well, take care,

Pate
skruzich
#15 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2003 11:19:51 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Ok thanks pate
pate20135
#16 Posted : Sunday, July 13, 2003 11:53:45 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Luna,

Recieved no email. If not sent for privacy reasons, I do understand.

For thee to pervue, http://www.compostingtoilet.org

Take care,

Pate
lunailoniafaer
#17 Posted : Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:51:45 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
I couldn''t send it- I have no Yahoo! account :(
andydufresne
#18 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:12:12 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
LUNA:

You are accessing this website...if you can do that you can sign up for a YAHOO or hotmail email account. THEY ARE FREE! THEN you just check your email from the website instead of using a mail client.
skruzich
#19 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:39:48 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
I don''t use yahoo cause they won''t allow me to access the popmail. I don''t like logging onto webmail. I use hotmail though and get my mail in that way to my client
steve
pate20135
#20 Posted : Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:29:13 PM
Rank: Guest

Posts: 134,494
Luna, Andy is correct, but I use mail.com. I simply like it better. Well, Michael has the package when thee finds a way.

I will say that I do NOT like HotMail. Too much privacy invasion. YaHoo, I have never tried.

Pate
Users browsing this topic
Anonymous
2 Pages 12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.





Subscribe Today - Pay Now & Save 66% Off the Cover Price

First Name: *
Last Name: *
Address: *
City: *
State/Province: *
Zip/Postal Code:*
Country:
Email:*
(* indicates a required item)
Canadian subs: 1 year, (includes postage & GST). Foreign subs: 1 year, . U.S. funds.
Canadian Subscribers - Click Here
Non US and Canadian Subscribers - Click Here

Lighten the Strain on the Earth and Your Budget

MOTHER EARTH NEWS is the guide to living — as one reader stated — “with little money and abundant happiness.” Every issue is an invaluable guide to leading a more sustainable life, covering ideas from fighting rising energy costs and protecting the environment to avoiding unnecessary spending on processed food. You’ll find tips for slashing heating bills; growing fresh, natural produce at home; and more. MOTHER EARTH NEWS helps you cut costs without sacrificing modern luxuries.

At MOTHER EARTH NEWS, we are dedicated to conserving our planet’s natural resources while helping you conserve your financial resources. That’s why we want you to save money and trees by subscribing through our earth-friendly automatic renewal savings plan. By paying with a credit card, you save an additional $5 and get 6 issues of MOTHER EARTH NEWS for only $12.00 (USA only).

You may also use the Bill Me option and pay $17.00 for 6 issues.