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Global Warming is the Greatest Fraud of our Time Options
Paratrooper
#1 Posted : Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:27:57 AM
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The UN AGAIN???   Oh Timmy , you blew up the wrong building .


Tom in Kingman AZ
John Edward Mercier
#2 Posted : Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:45:21 PM
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I wouldn't worry about the transfer of any 'wealth' out of the United States.

If the current numbers are right, the US barely has enough to pay social security, medicare, and interest on the debt.

davisonh
#3 Posted : Friday, October 30, 2009 3:16:54 AM
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Oh I dont think I'd worry about national sovereignty too much,going to walmart does more to ruin our national sovereignty than our government could ever do.Cmate we've found the enemy and it is ourselves.

You know it's about time the rest of the world takes over some responsibility for it's own actions,I'm pretty sick of paying for the rest of the worlds' problems.Yes there's global warming.We're 10,000 years out of an Ice Age.Look at the boulders out in your woods cmate,they did'nt walk there on their own.As I've been saying whether we have anything to do with it or not  is not important,what is is that ya,the earth's warming up again.Anyone know why Greenland is called Greenland? At one time there was no ice there.

What we should be doing is burning something else other than oil.Thats why Obama is doing all this.We have got to get off of the oil addiction there's absolutely no doubt about that.As far as being protectionist and saving our own jobs,you know what?Americans expect too much for too little.We're the highest paid workers in the world with the fewest hours worked(except for France)We have gotten L A Z Y, simple as that.We used to be good, we are not anymore.We now need to pay,sorry.

davisonh
#4 Posted : Friday, October 30, 2009 3:28:34 AM
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On top of this large US corporations are 'multinational' as are many other foreign corporations.We've been exporting our form of gov;t for years and now we want to be all protectionist now? Can't have it both ways..

John Edward Mercier
#5 Posted : Friday, October 30, 2009 3:12:24 PM
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I don't think thats what Copenhagen is about.

From the media activism, it seems to be about a global goal of achieving atmospheric carbon dioxide of no more than 350ppm.

To make this happen the US would need to deregulate certain areas of commerce, which isn't likely to happen.

 

mawfez
#6 Posted : Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:54:03 AM
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cmate wrote:
 President Obama is on a path toward establishing a one-world government. This is the warning of Christopher Monckton, a former major policy adviser to British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

 

You see here's where the times has done you a favor.  You need to read no further. By placing Monckton's name in the lead, you know the entire article is garbage.  Learn more here 

He's so stupid it's laughable

 



Pat Miketinac
#7 Posted : Saturday, October 31, 2009 3:39:04 AM
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The bureaucracy and costs of  "global warming" fixes will be too high. This is another reason you will be hearing more about states rights, nullification and secession as the states become unable to pay for the many unconstitutional Federal mandates to come. Many states have already refused to implement RFID because it violates the Constitution. I think Texas could be the first state to secede because they would thrive as an independent republic, with their resources, industry and energy independence. They will resent the coming Federal thefts the most. More at tenthamendmentcenter.com.

jd
#8 Posted : Saturday, October 31, 2009 5:42:42 PM
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I confess, C-mate, that I rarely believe what the governement says.  And, if they are on the 'global warming' march, then there is likely a lot of room for skepticism on some of it.  But the warnings preceded the government's alignment by decades.  The politicians and bureaucrats are, as usual, late to the party.  They aren't leaders, they are followers and the leaders in this 'awareness' started with Rachel Carson, James Lovelock and Greenpeace.  Hardly conspirators or profiteers.  Still, I would have some more doubts if I didn't see evidence in my own backyard.  It may be coincidence but we have billions of jellyfish in our waters now - warm water jellyfish we never say before.  And the cold water fish are gone.  When I was a kid in Vancouver we regularly had 6 and 10 foot snowfalls.  Now, none.  The Oysters used to stop rowing at a certain line of latitude.  Now they are reproducing 15 miles North of that.  And the list goes on and on.  So, I have radical activists, government asses and my own eyes all telling me this is all real.  What makes you so sure that it is not?  If it is the Rush Limbaugh's of this world, you really should read more of writers you might not otherwise encounter.       

cmate
#9 Posted : Saturday, October 31, 2009 10:11:04 PM
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Attacking The Messenger, Wow, there's a new one!  

 I will take NASA's word over MEN's anyday, at least NASA uses actual Science for its claims & disputes of claims; infact wasn't it just NASA a couple of months ago that Proved sun-spots caused warming?  Science is a funny thing, no matter how you manipulate it, the facts always seem to come to the surface anyway, despite Algore distorting them in a movie & lobbying for a policy that will make him & his buddies @ GoldmanSachs a fortune despite the massive amount of evidence against it.
When railing about Global Cooling failed, railing about Global Warming then took its place, now that has failed, railing about Climate Change is the new IT word....that too will fail, but at what cost to our children & grand children?

"NASA warming scientist James Hansen, one of former Vice-President Al Gore’s closest allies in the promotion of man-made global warming fears, is being publicly rebuked by his former supervisor at NASA.
Retired senior NASA atmospheric scientist, Dr. John S. Theon, the former supervisor of James Hansen, NASA’s vocal man-made global warming fear soothsayer, has now publicly declared himself a skeptic and declared that Hansen “embarrassed NASA” with his alarming climate claims and said Hansen was “was never muzzled.” Theon joins the rapidly growing ranks of international scientists abandoning the promotion of man-made global warming fears.
“I appreciate the opportunity to add my name to those who disagree that global warming is man made,” Theon wrote to the Minority Office at the Environment and Public Works Committee on January 15, 2009.
..... “Hansen was never muzzled even though he violated NASA's official agency position on climate forecasting (i.e., we did not know enough to forecast climate change or mankind's effect on it). Hansen thus embarrassed NASA by coming out with his claims of global warming in 1988 in his testimony before Congress,” Theon wrote.
..... Theon declared “climate models are useless.” “My own belief concerning anthropogenic climate change is that the models do not realistically simulate the climate system because there are many very important sub-grid scale processes that the models either replicate poorly or completely omit,” Theon explained. “Furthermore, some scientists have manipulated the observed data to justify their model results."

Update: More Than 700 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims 

Outpouring of Skeptical Scientists Continues as 59 Scientists Added to Senate Report 

‘The science has, quite simply, gone awry’  



 

cmate
#10 Posted : Saturday, October 31, 2009 10:16:02 PM
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Update: More Than 700 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims 

Outpouring of Skeptical Scientists Continues as 59 Scientists Added to Senate Report 

‘The science has, quite simply, gone awry’  


davisonh
#11 Posted : Sunday, November 01, 2009 2:49:07 AM
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I agree completely with you on this cmate knowing we do not agree on many issues but this one I do completely agree with you on scientifically. Modern humankind has not been around long enough to be able to conclude scientifically,even with historical ice data,tree rings, modern technical dating etc. that we have had any effect at all on long term climate.Earth's climate changes dramatically on a daily basis.I will conclude that yes,the Earth is warming up and as I say over and over again,where you and I sit cmate(you're in Pennsylvania and I'm in NH) there was 2 miles of solid ice and this did'nt retreat until 10,000-50,000 years ago.2 miles of solid ice is A LOT of ice.Thats 10,560 feet of ice!Thats a lot of extremely cold(32 to-100 all year long for many years!)weather to be able to produce an ice sheet that big.We still have problems with time scales and it shows in our data.Now the flip side of the coin:

That does not mean that we should go on the way we are.Nature,God,or the Force meant for that oil,gas and coal to stay in the ground and there it should stay.We know enough now as a civilization that there are excesses;that there IS an 'end' to the resources we have and that we are smart enough as a civilization to be able to cheaply make our own resouces and that is proven every day.If it takes a scare such as global warming then so be it.As I say,junk science is junk science.CO2 takes 25 -50years to break down to carbon and oxygen in free air and that is not mentioned at all anywhere,why?Methane is more the problem,it is heavy and is ten times what CO2 is yet you never hear about it,why?Cheap'n easy is'nt cheap and easy anymore,the true cost is being borne out now and yea there are going to be winners and losers like in everything.Energy needs to be diversified,there is too much power being levied by too few concerning energy and that has to be changed and the start to that change is how we use it and the ways we use it.We're starting but we're way behind others in the world.Obama knows all this cmate if I were you I dump stocks in coal and oil and go green.There is no clean coal,lot of it but we can do better.

mawfez
#12 Posted : Monday, November 02, 2009 1:52:21 AM
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cmate wrote:

 

Attacking The Messenger, Wow, there's a new one!  

When the messenger is Monckton, entirely appropriate.  Plus he's lying and the link provided shows it.


Update: More Than 700 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims 

Outpouring of Skeptical Scientists Continues as 59 Scientists Added to Senate Report 

‘The science has, quite simply, gone awry’  

 Ah, yes the Inhofe list.  It's bogus .  Full of TV weatherman and such. He put it together in in "mine's bigger than your's" pique to lamely attempt to counteract the fact that all these REAL scientists support the fact the CO2 and other GHGs are causing global warming.
  • National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
  • Environmental Protection Agency
  • NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies
  • American Geophysical Union
  • American Institute of Physics
  • National Center for Atmospheric Research
  • American Meteorological Society
  • The Royal Society of the UK
  • Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
  • American Association for the Advancement of Science
  • Academia Brasiliera de Ciencias (Brazil)
  • Royal Society of Canada
  • Chinese Academy of Sciences
  • Academie des Sciences (France)
  • Deutsche Akademie der Naturforscher Leopoldina (Germany)
  • Indian National Science Academy
  • Accademia dei Lincei (Italy)
  • Science Council of Japan
  • Russian Academy of Sciences
  • Royal Society (United Kingdom)
  • National Academy of Sciences (USA) (12 Mar 2009 news release)
  • Australian Academy of Sciences
  • Royal Flemish Academy of Belgium for Sciences and the Arts
  • Caribbean Academy of Sciences
  • Indonesian Academy of Sciences
  • Royal Irish Academy
  • Academy of Sciences Malaysia
  • Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand
  • Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
 Be the way, You mentioned Al Gore in your post.  He'll be on Letterman Monday.  He's got a new book out.

 

http://images.indiebound.com/347/867/9781594867347.jpg

John Edward Mercier
#13 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:06:29 PM
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Davisonh, your mistaking orbital forcing for atmospheric and oceanic tempering. They work together but both exist. And Cmate, your mistaking a short cycle phenomena for long term climate change.

While Pat is mistaking State's Rights... with absolution of federal empowerment ratified within the US Constitution (by the way Texas entered the Union because Mexico wanted it back... not much different than the New England states fearing the British and French to the north). Also, I have no clue what RFID is... RealID is a program where a State may voluntarily submit to a program were its identification documents will be held equal to a federal one. It like NAIS came from New England; we're use to crossing from Canada back into the US with just a State-issued driver's license... but now must get a passport.

Largely because US Con Article One Section Eight, empowering the Congress to control interstate commerce... they have the ability to do so. The question is: Even if nothing comes of Copenhagen, do you believe that the US Congress will not increase CAFE standards? Increase taxation on gasoline/diesel? Etc.

Believe me... China and India are not going to sign onto Copenhagen; and neither will the US Congress without them.

Pat Miketinac
#14 Posted : Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:32:58 AM
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RFID stands for radio frequency identification as part of the RealID program. The problem is that a RFID chip in a driver's license or credit card can be read by unauthorized people with a reader from 20 feet away, all without your knowledge. Campaignforliberty.com had articles on this.

Our local Campaign for Liberty group is doing a lot of research on the Constitution right now to prepare  a class for our region. We are using documents that the Constitution was based on in order to learn the true meaning. You would be amazed how much power the Federal government has now that originally was meant only for the states. The Founding Fathers never meant for the Federal government to be a provider of services such as health care, subsidies, social security, etc. The interstate commerce clause was not meant to overrule the states' rights, but rather to come to mutual agreements on commerce. In other words, we now have the kind of government that the Founding Fathers were trying to prevent.

Interesting that by Jefferson's second term, the only taxes in the United States were on imports! Imagine what it would be like to keep all that you earned. Wait till this climate bill passes.

John Edward Mercier
#15 Posted : Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:44:27 PM
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RFID chips only give off a very small code, that without a file to reference the number to... mean very little. It would be like me knowing your driver's license number... without the files attached to the number, the number doesn't mean anything.

The programs you speak of are not interstate commerce. The mechanism of taxation was empowered under the 16th Amendment... something that the Founders could not write about. The programs were contested under Article Three Section Two, and upheld... though the courts have issued opinion that the taxation is not directly tied to the programs... as such the taxation can continue regardless of the programs.

The climate bill is simply a mechanism for determining taxation. Its empowerment is Article One Section Eight Clause One... original to the US Constitution.

States' Rights are not found within the US Constitution. The specific amendment to that document is the 10th. It does not give the States any rights... it simply 'reserves' those items not empowered to the federal government for the States, or the People. The States' powers come from the People based on their various constitutions.

Did they teach you yet that Thomas Jefferson held both the Jay Treaty and Louisiana Purchase to be unconstitional. In his world... you would be living in a part of Spain, and I returned to Quebec.

History is interesting... but law is contemporary.

 

 

mawfez
#16 Posted : Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:31:37 AM
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Actually, Pat would be in a part of France, which is who we bought Louisiana from.  It was transferred from Spain to France by Third Treaty of San Ildefonso in 1800.

John, Jefferson is an interesting guy.  Made the Louisiana Purchase even though he doubted it was constitutional.  If Jefferson had his way, the US would never have been more than a banana republic of gentleman farmers.

 

And Pat, the cost of Cap and trade will be peanuts.  Pennies per day.

Pat Miketinac
#17 Posted : Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:55:59 AM
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John, RFID info has already been used for identity theft, I guess the crooks know how to access the files.

I should have used the term "states powers" instead of  "states rights". Our U.S Constitution is Federal, not National. In Nationalism, the States would be subservient. In Federalism, the States are not subservient to the Federal government, but instead co-equals in power. Therefore, I see nothing in Article 1 Section 8 that allows the Federal government to force the climate bill on the States. Timothy Baldwin is really good on this subject.

As far as the 16th amendment, the Founders would never have approved of a personal income tax, this was considered confiscation of property by them. They referenced the Enlightenment Philosophers such as John Locke, who makes fascinating reading to this day.

The Supreme Court is unlikely to rule against today's Federal government.

Yes, I knew that Jefferson considered the Louisiana Purchase to be unconstitutional. See Jefferson's letters of 1803 for his summary. "I thought it my duty to risk myself for you." he said, anticipating that Congress would make an amendment because of  the importance of the purchase. If you doubt his intelligence, read his writings (1600 pages in my book).

Cap and Trade only pennies a day? Are they 1909S VDB pennies?

 

 

John Edward Mercier
#18 Posted : Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:43:14 PM
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The Founders didn't have to approve of a personal income tax... they weren't sovereigns. And the Congress couldn't make an amendment for the Louisiana Purchase... only the People can ratify an amendment.

The power of the US Constitution and State Constitutions comes from the People. Which is what the 10th represents. Its contemporary, not tradional in nature...

You see nothing in Article One Section Eight that allows for the climate bill?

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Right there is the empowerment. The Congress never has to pass the climate bill. If you look closely they already tax the subject of the bill in various formats and could simply raise the rates. Higher taxes means a higher cost, and higher costs means people looking for ways to cut back on usage.

For credit fraud, I don't need access to your file. But any place you've used your credit card... the information would be on file.

Pat Miketinac
#19 Posted : Friday, November 06, 2009 5:22:12 AM
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I was only stating the Founder's opinion of an income tax, and that Jefferson expected the proposal of an amendment.

So far, over 20 states have exercised their sovereign rights by refusing to implement the 2005 RealID act. I expect the same thing will happen if provisions of the climate bill are unacceptable to the states because there are so many rules and regulations in the bill in addition to taxes. What if they include the 15% ethanol requirement proposed for gasoline? None of the cars that I know of are approved for more than 10%, except for the flex fuel E85 cars.

John Edward Mercier
#20 Posted : Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:12:24 AM
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The RealID Act was voluntary to the States.

A State could, if it wished, have its identification formats be considered equal to the federal ones.

The Climate Bill will not be voluntary to the individual States... as Congress is empowered with the ability to lay and collect taxes. There would need to be an amendment to the US Constitution restricting this empowerment... and that can only come from the People.

 

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