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Say NO to the "Cap and Trade" bill Options
Pat Miketinac
#21 Posted : Thursday, July 16, 2009 4:08:24 AM
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You are very well informed, practicalman45. I wonder how long it will take the average citizen to realize what is happening. Did you know that Australia is going through the same kind of cap-and-trade plan? They could fare even worse because 80% of their power comes from coal and they have many other industries dependent on the coal powerplants. The Federal Reserve and their "allies" around the world are crushing those in their way. Meanwhile, another new coal powerplant comes on line almost weekly in China.

#22 Posted : Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:21:49 AM
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Thank you, Pat Miketinac. It is good to have someone else here with the awareness that you have, also.  

I appreciate your comments and replies to my posts.  Maybe, between us, we can help a few other forum members wake up to the situation of globalization and the NWO.

#23 Posted : Friday, July 24, 2009 2:25:40 AM
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I'm willing to tolerate cap and trade basically because the only way most of the people I know are going to even begin to think about how much energy they use-- let alone contemplate conservation or efficiency-- is if continuing to be mindlessly profligate with it starts to seriously whack them in the pocketbook. 

I know way too many people who, for example, leave every light in the house on all the time, or keep the house 75 degrees all year around.  If they even think I'm saying something about it, it's, "Why bother??  Power's cheap." 

Others also have a point, though.  We're not the biggest piece of the problem any more.  Everyone wants to be "wealthy."  China and India are full of people who want to live the same stupid way we take for granted.  Full of this one, that one, and the other one dumping out tons of pollution every day. 

And that's just right now.  If they can't pollute here, they'll pollute there.  If they can't pollute there, they'll go somewhere else.  Hey-- all of Africa wants only a bit of political stability to be the next developing world. 

"Solving the problems" here won't solve the problems.  We've got some faulty expectations.  The world has worshipped America because the majority of people are inclined to crave the material standard of living we "enjoy".  Rather like the kid with the pool becoming the most popular third grader.  Are we still stupid enough to think that we've been emulated for what we are (or more accurately what we fancy ourselves to be) rather than what we possess????

Either way you cut it, human nature sucks.   

#24 Posted : Friday, July 24, 2009 2:47:41 AM
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Exactly MC,if there is an 'enemy' in the globalists,world economic power brokers,etc,one thing we have  to understand  is pman,we're already there,i.e in a world economy.Last year was a perfect example of what happens in a world economy, when energy prices destabilize the worlds' economies,not just ours.You think we have it bad,its ten times worse overseas.If the 'cap and trade' does anything as MC says,it will make it well apparent to us,and to people who really do broker economic power how much energy really DOES cost.Energy IS an indulgency.We would'nt be where we are without it,and that is why I am saying it's a 'get real' bill.I think it will decentralize/redistribute our energy sources here,which is hopefully the cap and trades' ultimate goal.Everyone knows we could get along much better using a LOT less power/fuel than we do now.Europes a great example of much better engineering and IMO I think our engineering leaves a whole lot to be desired overall.We're getting our butts kicked here,as we deserve to,we've had it good too long.Time for the rest of the world to catch up,at least give them a chance to attain a better standard of living than they have now.This gives them that chance.Sometimes the rest of the world has to learn what we have known for years;Beijing's a good example of air pollution issues.It won't destroy our nation, we have the technological knowledge to take care of ourselves ;we have many ways now of getting by by ourselves and can afford it.Other nations cannot and if we don't do anything to help them along we stand the chance of heading into politically dangerous situations overseas concerning energy.This is why I am for the cap and trade.

#25 Posted : Friday, July 24, 2009 2:53:07 AM
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I think I'm going to have to rescind the first portion of my last comment.  I have a hard time being a consipracy theorist, but practicalman has a really valid point.  C&T might do something about the household contribution to emissions...

...but that's kind of infinitessimal compared to what's pumped out by industry. 

And, unless making it elsewhere and bringing it here to sell becomes prohibitively expensive (protectionism, the dirty word our McLeadership won't be caught dead having applied to them), industry is just going to take it elsewhere. 

End result???  We get to feel all warm and fuzzy about What America Is (or Isn't) Doing.  But, other than that, nothing really changes.  It's a small planet. 

Say NO.  And then vote with what they really want-- your money.  Buy it green, buy it secondhand, or don't buy it.  Insofar as you can, DON'T BUY IT is probably the best option of all.   

#26 Posted : Friday, July 24, 2009 3:00:12 AM
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Valid point, davisonh.  I guess warm fuzzies do count for something.  Though I don't know if there's any way China, India, and et cetera can be convinced to get on board when they're "prospering" so much in the short-term analysis.  Money in the hand is a major driving force in more ways than one-- steak dinners and more and bigger rooms are powerful things. 

What to do???

In other thoughts, jem, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you're writing.  I know you're a busy man, but more clarity please???? 

#27 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:14:47 AM
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Posts: 134,494

Here are links to more info regarding the "Global Warming "  it seems to me that this issue is not settled or conclusive. I maintain that the Cap and Trade taxation legislation, which is based on the premise of human-caused "Global Warming", is NOT based on accurate science or adequate information. If it isn't, should we still be taking these draconian measures that are sure to hurt us economically??  Our economy is going down the tubes as it is, anyways. The high gas prices of last year will soon be returning again. (they were just supressed lately to bankrupt some of the opec countries) That supressed consumption quite a lot by itself. We are going to be consuming  less energy as a result of higher prices, and less disposable income, anyways. Do we really need to be paying tarriffs to world bankers and global politicos who are seeking more control over us on top of it all??

 (I don't know why the hyperlinks didn't paste in here, usually they do. This page has the links that work:  
http://freedomforceinternational.org/dev/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=globalwarming  )

Suppressed EPA document shows global warming to be a hoax. Fox/YouTube 2009 June 29

31,000 scientists sign statement that there is no convincing evidence of human activity causing global warming. Yet, politicians completely ignore the evidence and push for laws to control industry and tax citizens for energy use. This is about political power, not the environment. Class Brain Posted 2009 June 27

MIT scientists conclude that increase in greenhouse gasses may not be man-made after all.
Daily Galaxy 2009 June 25

Arctic ice refuses to melt as ordered. In fact, it is 30% greater than last year. Scientists producing charts showing ice shrinkage caught lying. Register 2008 Aug 15

Prediction of Polar Bear decline is critically flawed, says forecasting expert. Science Daily 2008 May 8

New satellite data reveals Earth is entering 23-year cooling cycle. The global-warming scare is over.
Center for Global Food Issues 2008 May 5

Antarctic warming predictions have failed to materialize, new study finds. Yahoo News 2008 May 7

Bird populations on the increase, exact opposit to claims by global-warning alarmists. Info Wars 2008 Apr 17

It's now official: Global cooling has begun.
Daily Tech 2008 Feb 26

China: Power grid destroyed by prolonged snow and ice. Lowest temperatures in over a century.
Epoch Times 2008 Feb 7

Ice returns as Greenland temperatures plummet. Copenhagen Post 2008 Jan 16

"Stock up on fur coats and felt boots!" says Russian scientist. Global cooling is next. RIA Novosti 2008 Jan 3

U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 scientists dispute man-made global warming. Debunks "consensus". EPW 2007 Dec 20

2007 was the 9th consecutive year of global cooling. Washington Times 2007 Dec 19

Over 100 prominent scientists warn UN: Attempting to control climate is ‘futile’. CFP 2007 Dec 13

VIDEO: Ron Paul slams global warming 'fearmongering'. Prison Planet 2007 Dec 6

Retreat of Artic ice is localized, caused by wind patterns. Overall, it is getting thicker. Heartland 2007 Nov 29

VIDEO: Founder of Weather Channel says global warming is greatest scam in history. CNN 2007 Nov 15

Scientists believe warmer North Pole caused by ocean currents, not global warming. Register 2007 Nov 15

UK: Judge rules Gore's film on global warming is full of errors. Register 2007 Oct 11

Scientists now are predicting global cooling. CFP Posted 2007 Oct 6

Global Warming (NOT) and the Chesapeake Bay . NewsByUs 2007 Oct 4

Reports of record Arctic ice melt disgracefully ignore history. News Busters Posted 2007 Sep 29

Antarctic ice grows to record levels & Over 500 scientists published studies countering global warming fears. CFP 2007 Sep 13

New study shows that most published scientists do NOT endorse global warming theory. EPW 2007 Aug 29

New study concludes that global warming is not caused by human activity. WND 2007 Aug 20

Global warming scientists fudge data to make their case. CFP 2007 Aug 16

Error found in NASA climate data. Warmest year on record now is 1934, not 1998. Global warming? Daily Tech Posted 2007 Aug 11

Latest scientific studies refute fears of Greenland melt. It has been getting colder since 1955. CFP 2007 July 31

South African water experts find that Earth’s warming is linked to Sun. CFP 2007 July 24

Another climatologist says the Sun is causing global warming, not man. CFP 2007 July 7

Ancient Greenland was covered with forests. Global warming is a natural cycle. MSNBC 2007 July 5

Canadian Professor says: Prepare for Global COOLING. NewsMax 2007 June 21

Global-Warming scientists changing from believers to skeptics. CFP 2007 May 16

More scientists say case for global warming is irrational. Standard Freeholder 2007 Apr 27

Solar flares in December were ten times stronger than previous record. Disrupts GPS [and causes global warming]. Register 2007 Apr 5

Mars experiencing global warming - obviously not man made. Sun-spot deniers struggle to explain it. Register 2007 Apr 5

Globalists and multinational corporatists say they want universal belief in man-made global warming. Just the opposite of what we have been told. Prison Planet 2007 Mar 28

Al Gore's Inconvenient Electric Bill. 20 times greater than for average home. CFP 2007 Mar 12

Warming on Mars from increased Sun activity challenges theory that Earth warming is caused by man. CFP 2007 Mar 2

Cold temperatures in Antarctic do not support global warming predictions. Ohio State Univ 2007 Feb 15

Danish researchers say ‘Blame cosmic rays not CO2 for warming the planet’. Times OnLine 2007 Feb 12

President of Czech Republic says man-made global warming is a myth - Questions Gore's Sanity. Drudge Report 2007 Feb 12

Former Editor of New Scientist says artic ice is melting but antarctic ice is growing. Global warming is cyclical, related to Solar activity, not man made. Times OnLine 2007 Feb 11

Scientists and media predicted global cooling crisis only 32 years ago. Here's the proof. Can we trust them now? Newsweek Posted 2007 Feb 7

Climate professor says: Global Warming is NOT due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide. CFP 2007 Feb 5

Threat of climate change more about redistributing wealth than science. CFP 2007 Feb 5

Senate hears testimony from scientists who reject theory of man-made global warming. EPW 2006 Dec 6

Renowned scientist defects from belief in global warming. While Artic ice is shrinking, Antarctic ice is growing. EPW Posted 2006 Dec 2

Climate chaos? Don't believe it. UK Telegraph Posted 2006 Nov 5

Global warming occurred in pre-historic times. Not man-made then or now. Science News 2006 Oct 7

The oceans are cooling, scientists report. Science News Posted 2006 Sept 30

Senator presents facts that challenge the myth of man-made global warming. Canada Free Press 2006 Sept 25

Global warming is a scam, say college professors. Denver Post 2006 Sept 24

Global warming? What they don't tell us in the media. New American 2006 Sept 12

US Academy of Sciences ignores 1500-year climate cycle that disproves global warming. CFP 2006 July 1

More junk science behind global warming myth exposed. CFP 2006 June 27

Story of bears eating each other as result of global warming shown to be a lie. CFP 2006 June 15

Scientists reject Gore's warnings of climate catastrophe. CFP 2006 June 12

Global warming predates mankind. Investors Posted 2006 June 3

Did global warming stop in 1998? Temperatures have declined for last 7 years. CFP 2006 May 25

Global warming is a myth to promote a political agenda. Here are the scientific facts. CFP 2006 May 18

Global-warming alarmists intimidate dissenting scientists into silence. WSJ 2006 Apr 12

Is Global Warming Getting Colder? CFP 2006 Mar 30

Time cover story offers no evidence of global warming caused by humans. CFP 2006 Mar 30

Some glaciers are melting (they usually do) but polar caps are growing, not shrinking. CFP 2006 Mar 11


John Edward Mercier
#28 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2009 8:03:14 PM
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Cap and Trade is not based on global warming/climate change... if you can't get that, you'll never get it.

Its basis is the need for revenue... forward projections show continued deficits, and the US Supreme Court ruling in Massachussets vs. EPA.

A policy change at the EPA would create efficiency and reduce carbon dioxide emissions... but would not create revenue for the government. It also couldn't play politics by exempting/including specific groups.

Thus Cap and Trade legislation.


MC, could you be more specific on what you would like me to clarify?

#29 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2009 8:59:14 AM
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Yes, JEM.  Thats exactly what I said at the first post of the thread    ""cap-and-trade," yet another attempt to impose a hidden tax on all of us".  I'm just trying to help everyone else realize that.  And I agree with you that it is a way to raise revenue from the people. A whole lot of revenue!

I think that it is going to cut us to the bone, economically, and that we should resist it if we want to retain some shred of "non-slave status".

#30 Posted : Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:00:56 AM
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Ok, this member is now paying more attention.That's at least one for your efforts!


#31 Posted : Sunday, August 02, 2009 2:13:21 AM
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This is what I mean also by 'junk science',and what the real 'whole idea' is all about.Global warming is a rallying cry and it should not be.The rallying cry should be to stop using oil.Leave the stuff be thats underground and start getting smart about the energy that exists all around us presently.Oil is an unstable energy source,last year shluld havce proved that to everyone.The only ones who won bigtime were multinational(pman!)oil companies.Keep running ancient engineering that is the reciprocating engine and you will keep seeing what you are seeing.If cap and trade really does fund better engineering ideas I am all for it but it has to be for real this time,we've all been burned before.

John Edward Mercier
#32 Posted : Sunday, August 02, 2009 9:44:41 AM
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That was a distibution problem. The crude oil is produced naturally as a derivative of solar. But its acquisition and distribution is limited by engineering and social regulation.

Its demand can far outstrip its supply because of the logistics created by the social regulation. And when that social regulation creates 100% global utilization, it leaves open a 'leveraged saddle trade' that can only be stopped by the US Congress acting through the Treasury and FedRes Board of Governors.

#33 Posted : Sunday, August 02, 2009 6:55:44 PM
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So, this cap and trade advocating bunch is sitting there lying to us. Promoting this global warming scare stuff. They are hypochrites (look at Al Gore's electric bill): http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=...&id=5072659 .  Twenty times more electrical usage than me! And my bill is for powering 2 households and a welding shop business!  And these corporate big-wigs pushing this on us are flying around in their own private gulfstream jets, that guzzle thousands of gallons of fuel per trip, while telling us "commoners" that we really need to conserve, and we really need this cap and trade legislation to go through (to line THEIR pockets!).

Their corporations and foundations (tax dodges) fund advertising on nearly every other page in just about any magazine you care to leaf through, as well as all of the television networks articles and programs,  telling us to be aware of our "carbon feetprints", touting the need for this offsets and cap and trade legislation that is going to cut us little people to the bone.

So, then, these are the guys that we are supposed to trust to be telling us the truth this time.

Pat Miketinac
#34 Posted : Monday, August 03, 2009 1:33:16 AM
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Thanks for mentioning freedomforceinternational.org practicalman45, very interesting. You also mentioned campaignforliberty.com in the orig. post. If you are a member, I am earthshelterguy in Hernando county FL. Another site you may like is ehow.com. They have info on how to fix most anything. I just posted a fix there for HP printers that won't reset.

John Edward Mercier
#35 Posted : Monday, August 03, 2009 8:12:53 PM
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If the numbers are correct, and they seem to be, then a broad level of conservation is already occuring amongst the masses. The Federal Highway Fund needed a revenue boost last year, and appears to need a much larger one this year.


#36 Posted : Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:03:00 PM
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The following statements assume the reality of man-made climate change.  I'm comfortable assuming the reality of climate change, anyway, because the evidence that comes from my front yard thru my eyes to my brain seems to confirm it.  As for man-made, well, we can debate that later. 

Seems to me that cap-and-trade is being promoted, more than anything, to allow the same people to continue running the same technology in the same way for as long as possible.  If man-made climate change is real, that's not a good thing.  If it's not, it's an irrelevant thing. 

Cap-and-trade would help IF-- and ONLY IF-- it funds new technologies (which we could have had already if people didn't run around terrified of any shift in the status quo) and encourages conservation on EVERYONE'S part.  Everyone means everyone.  Not just people who have to cut the power bill in order to eat next month. 

Many things would be-- or anyway could be-- much better if we all invested our effort and energy in finding better solutions rather than in ways to push others into thinking like us.  Whatever this is, we're all in this together.  But we sure don't act like it.  It's hard to find people that are willing to think like a community; our leaders seem to be the worst of the bunch. 

John Edward Mercier
#37 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2009 3:55:40 PM
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I didn't post that humans aren't affecting the climate. We manipulate the micro-climate every day... which has impacts on the macro-climate. I posted that the C&T bill language would not specifically handle any aspect of anthropogenic climate effect...

It treats the GHGs not on the amount and effect, but on the anthropogenic source.





#38 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2009 10:32:08 PM
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here is a link for a short  extract from an interview with Historian  adressing the cap and trade swindle


#39 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:06:27 AM
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            I was really interested in this when it first started so I did some research . I remembered a show on TV which showed a mammoth that was found in Mongolia that had frozen to death about 40,000 years ago . I figured it was climate change so I checked with GM . They assured me that they DID NOT produce any Chevy Suburbans that year soooooo that wasn't the problem . I then checked the rainfall in my part of AZ . Not a lot of rain this year . Not too much last year . A LOT the 2 years before . BUT if you check the averages we are getting a short year and the others were large years . The average stays the same . So it seems Mother Nature did not get the memo re: every year being the exact same and any deviation whatsoever will bring out the "sky is falling" types . The next time Al Bore thinks that we can affect weather let him try to stick a tail pipe in the path of a hurricane . Cap and Trade is a scam and theft of the highest order .

Tom in Kingman AZ
John Edward Mercier
#40 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:48:15 PM
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The frozen mammoth would likely not be climate change (happens much too slowly). While something like the development of the Antarctic shield would most likely.

Its much more likely that glaciation begins on land were thermal ocean currents would have less of an effect, then slowly take hold as the snow/ice begin to reflect more sunlight.

The thermal mass of the oceans would restrict the growth of glaciers, but more than likely couldn't overcome a thinning atmosphere that would allow more radiation to escape into space (much the same as the lack of atmosphere on the moon works).


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