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Your money is now worth nothing Options
jd
#1 Posted : Sunday, September 21, 2008 7:00:24 PM
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Posts: 134,494
Hard to disagree even though I do...........with the basic premise that it's all a poorly run business, anyway.  It's not that.  It's intentional.  It's their agenda.  It's a well run criminal organization that has the tacit acceptance of the victims.  Like the mafia and the drug addicts, the American public continues to be duped and used by 'the system' that has long been proved corrupt.  You guys continue to support criminals.  It's that simple.

They are all criminals because they extort and murder and lie and live off the avails and sell what they don't own and invade and wage war and pollute and print money based on nothing and the list goes on.  Worse, they claim and control the legal system and make themselves exempt from it while prosecuting some poor jerk who steals a loaf of bread (three strikes and you are in jail forever).  And you and your media watch Disney. 

C'mon, you guys.  Just as Bush took 'ownership' of the word 'patriot' and fooled half the population into voting for him, so has the system commandeered basic 'core' words like 'Democracy',  'Freedom' and 'Liberty' and made them the code words for brainwashing you all into supporting THEIR system.  Even tho the system proves itself time and again NOT to be Democratic (where's the choice?), 'Free' (see Patriot Act) and fostering 'Liberty' (consumer and tax slaves).

The Constitution is a wonderful document.  But they have twisted every word in it.  You have to get back to the moral and ethical basics that were reflected in those immortal words.  Not the current governments interpretations of them.   

The only way to stop this nonsense is to rebel again.  Where is the much-needed American Revolution?  It can be peaceful.  It must be peaceful.  But it must happen or else the BIG LIE will continue.

Tell me I am wrong and prove it and I'll apologize and send money to the candidates.

John Edward Mercier
#2 Posted : Monday, September 22, 2008 3:35:29 PM
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Do any of you even know how the system works?

Non-fiat currency is subject to Grensham's Law.

US Coins are money... paper is a warehouse receipt redeemable in coin.

Most coins are fiat in that they follow Grensham's Law and have a face value greater than innate metallic content. The pre-1983 US Cent is not fiat, but was reconstituted to avoid Grensham's Law in its current rendition. The US Nickel is nearing a non-fiat status and the US Treasury has begged Congress to reconstitute it rather than face Grensham's Law.

Credit collapses are part of a natural economic cycle as commodity prices can only go so high before they absorb the greater part of economic activity. The commodity acts as the underlying collateral for the credit. Once its value falls, the collateral shrinks and the loan becomes 'at risk'.

The 'At Risk' loans create a capitalization pressure reducing further loans, leading to more commodity deflation... and the cycle continues until the underlying commodities reach a base.

 

All wealth is the creation of labor... the currency is just an exchange medium to represent the relative value of labor. Excess labor is stored as this medium of exchange.

Regardless of what the US government does... the underlying commodities must devaluate long term to meet the limits of this labor.

For example you have $10K of labor stored in the bank as USD, the houses in your area are selling for $200K average. Before you can meet a safe lending collateral (20% down), you would either need to save $30K more of labor, or the commodity (houses) would need to devalue to $50K. The point at which your stored labor meets the devalued commodity price is the base.

I'll give another example...

You purchase 100 ounces of silver at $12... you have 100 ounces of silver.

The price of silver moves to $18/oz... you have 100 ounces of silver.

The price of silver moves to $6/oz... you have 100 ounces of silver

 

In your mind you gained $600 USD, or lost $600 USD. Your mentally relating to USD.

Depending on your situation you should be feeling richer.

I never consider my real estate valuations, as I own and intend to homestead the property.

The more you homestead, the less the market prices will affect you.

 

jd
#3 Posted : Monday, September 22, 2008 11:32:40 PM
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JEM - once again a well written piece but apropos of nothing.  OK, it corrects Da-h's misuse of the word 'fiat' but it didn't address his basic point.  That basic point is that the system is corrupt.
In other words: everyone knows that there is not enough gold to 'back up' the dollar.  And everyone also knows that the corruption exposed will be shared down the line even tho the profits never are.

But back to basics for a minute: there can be no gold standard.  Not now.  Not ever.  The wealth of nation is not (nor should it be) based on it's hoard of bullion or even the appraised value of all of it's assets.  After all, if you have a nuclear armed ICBM, is it an asset or a liability?  A building valued in the 1920's is now part of a neglected inner city slum - value shifts with time, perception, use, need and so on.  The value of a nation is and should be on the health of that nation, from it's citizens to it's assets, to it's cashflow and it's future.  All that should be 'evaluated' against the number of dollars in circulation and the power of those dollars will reflect that value. 

But what if the prinitng presses (now defunct and replaced with 'virtual' presses and digital money') have no limit?  What if they keep prinitng and do not take the real value of what that means into account anymore?  In any other country, the dollar would inflate or deflate as the world saw fit.  But not so the country whose currency is the basis for all comparisons. 

Well, that still might be true for the US if it were not for a globalized economy where the ownership and condition of things is less national and more International, corporate and 'virtual'. 

Can anyone really say that the great USofA is still the most desirable or valuable (personally) place to be?  Even if your answer is yes, it is certainly not as valuable or desireable in the eyes of the world (markets) as it once was.  Your value is being eroded.  You must know that?

And do you know why?  Because the great US Constitution's values long espoused are not being adhered to any more.   Too many crooks.  Too little good.  Too much war.  Too little humanity.  Too much pollution.  America the great is now America the corrupt and the markets are doing a mea culpa.  All very cleansing but is it enough? 

I don't think so.     
davisonh
#4 Posted : Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:19:37 AM
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My point exactly jd,what if there is no limit to how much money legal and otherwise exists in the system,eventually its inherent value(and the value of the labor of the people driving that money)falls,and oh BTW,there is no bottom to that fall either.Ask any Mexican what poor is and they'll tell you what its like to have a currency not worth anything.(And no that was not meant as a bigoted statement..poverty exists in every nation to different degrees) Yes jem you're right wealth(and its physical counterpart money)is based on labor but what if your labors' not worth much to everyone else in the world other than you?.Now what do you do?You,your country and everything in it loses value to others ,causing more instability.For example today the market dropped 377 or so points because of a dangerous precedent you're going to see more of.Investors are losing trust in the very government intent on saving them,because the value of said country is being lost at a massive rate,that value being sold to other nations .It happens with every change in administration I know,but this has been building awhile and we all know it.This one's going to around awhile no matter who's in office.

Exactly jd ,saying the US is losing its desirability as a livable,stable nation in deference to the rest of the civilized world.It's not,by far and lately its showing.This administrations' own paranoia and insecurity will be all of our undoing I'm afraid.As Bush said,'the rest of the worlds' watching'but you know what,as a taxpayer I'm sick of bailing out every lousy businessman who's a pathetic statement to the rotten college educations' they've all paid too much for..really I am.

John Edward Mercier
#5 Posted : Wednesday, September 24, 2008 4:36:20 PM
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But the collapse is not due to an increase in money supply... its due to its shrinkage.

An increase in money supply will devalue the USD and inflate real commodity prices, such as housing. The bubble was this devaluation of the USD that has occurred over the last several years resulting in the skyrocketing housing prices.

The FedRes BOG only has limited powers. At this point Bernanke has tried very honestly to tell Congress that he can not lower the federal discount rate (what you would describe as 'printing money') without an offset in higher oil prices. No more is 'abstract' capital willing to chase gold or silver, whose price does not directly affect the daily economy.

So why is the government scared. Much of Americans wealth is based on real estate.

jd
#6 Posted : Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:41:20 PM
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Why is the government scared?  Because all money (or goods) is relative and they have allowed that relativity to get out of whack.  They have created and relied on a system that is a house of cards and some of the cards have been removed.  They have allowed it to get that way by deregulation, corruption, globalization and their perverted version of international free trade.  Reliance on foreiegn-owned oil hasn't helped either.  You are, after all, an economy that relies more on oil than any other one by a huge margin.  Bluntly put: your house isn't in order. 

But you are right, of course, the value of money shrunk (in an inflationary way).  More actual dollars floating out there but no MORE real value.  In actual fact, given the deteriorating state of your large-capital-reguiring infrastructures, real value may have declined, too.  Thus 'real value' (real estate) went up. 

So far, so good (in a 'so-called growth-oriented' system).  In fact, the capitalist system requires a 5% (approx) growth in everything every year - think about the madness of that!
 
But - like I said - things got out of whack.  Cashflow didn't go up for the average citizen.  For many, many it went down.  The rich got richer instead.  So the average citizen is now trying to buy a $500,000 house while working at Walmart, trying to buy $50,000 pickup trucks and putting trice upvalued oil in it.  Can't be done.  Many, many Americans can't afford to live there anymore. 

And - just so you know - many aren't trying.  Any Mexican city, any Latin American country, Canada............all have a lot of US ex-pats.  Even the Phillipines, Indonesia and SE Asia have US ex-pats.  Why?  Because they like to sweat?  I would guess that there are over 5 million US ex-pats and the number is climbing.     

The 'good' job they had at home before (the one at Ford, US Steel or IBM, which still enslaved them to the system which is designed to cost them what they can earn) was exported to Mexico, India and China.  After losing their jobs, many of the 50+ had a nest egg, cashed it in and went 'foreign'. 

You have the absurb economy of a country that produces little (owns a lot of shares and rifles) and imports a lot of stuff and expects their citizens to sustain that on less-than-professional-sports-star's income.

Whose fault?  Lots of blame to go around but the Military Industrial complex after the second world war is near the top of the list.  Their agenda has prevailed.  Your economy has specialized in the wrong ways.  Like all systems, it has matured to the point that it does what it does best and delegates the rest to outsiders.  Not all bad except that what you have chosen to do best is 'mess with markets', wage war and exploit disaster.  Not a good way to use your citizenry in my humble opinion.  You have what Naomi Klien calls Disaster Capitalism.  Read: The Shock Doctrine.

"Geez, JD, you must hate America!" ABSOLUTELY NOT!  I love the USA and that for which it has stood - until recently, anyway.  And I see the average American as a helluva nice person.  But I must admit to not being a fan of the 'BIG PLAYERS' and their cronies.  But they are YOUR players and cronies.  You have to do something about them.  I think a few have screwed the many.  And I support any efforts you take to get back your heritage - the REAL US Constitution - from those who have perverted it. 

 

  
John Edward Mercier
#7 Posted : Wednesday, September 24, 2008 7:42:55 PM
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No. The credit collapse is deflationary...

The price of housing and everything else is falling dramatically in this area.

Homeowners don't want the price of homes to fall, while potential homeowners do. Most voters are homeowners, thus government's fear.

The collapse causes a need for efficiency to survive... but Americans don't like real efficiency, just perceived.

 

 

 

davisonh
#8 Posted : Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:27:05 AM
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Problem is jem I think we don't really have a choice in the matter of whether we like it or not,I think it may happen whether we 'like' it or not;our huge economy is shrinking because it has nowhere more to go other than down and yes many homeowners' wealth is locked up in real estate,and literally these days it is..locked up because of tighter credit from banks.This means the price or 'value' of real estate will have no other choice but to go down.When that happens over time all real estate will go down,and everything else with it.(construction,manf.,etc)JD you're right,Americans don't do too much anymore,we've lost a huge amount of industrial capacity,vast amounts of 'menial office jobs' such as cust. service overseas.You can only have so many high paying exec. positions and service jobs to attend to those high paying execs.The govt having to 'prop up' our vastly inefficient  buffeted economy looks reaallly bad overseas.This eventually will lead to real efficiency and not a facade.

jd
#9 Posted : Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:10:58 AM
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It's an interesting discussion but it all boils down to the same thing:  a major financial 'adjustment' is about to be felt.  Sooner.  Or later.  Maybe even a full, all-out depression complete with dust bowls and tramps riding the rails. 

But I don't think it will be 'sooner'.  I suspect that enough duct tape and baling wire will be wrapped around long enough to struggle on at the 'old and usual ways' for a while longer.  Read: bailout. 

"Why?   Because that is what everyone wants.  

Anyway, the point may be moot............. 

It may be all over.

Imagine a man in a swift running river heading for a huge but unseen waterfall.  Instinctively that man will try to swim for shore.  Unless..............someone throws him a life ring.  Or he can grab a floating log.  If that happens, he grabs the life ring/log and hangs on.  And, of course, eventually goes over the waterfall.  It would have been better to have struck out for the shore but the life saver was easier.  Over the waterfall and it is all over.
 
Life preserver thinking is the policy of the US Fed/govt./industry/banks/insurance - but it is short term thinking  Worse - you've exported that way of thinking in the name of Globalization.  "Throw us a life preserver!"  It's an international distress signal.

We (or they) find a band-aid and carry on.  It's about short-term survivability.    

It's the reason the environment is suffering.  No long term view.  No sustainability.  It's the reason we all still drive cars when many people can no longer breathe clean air. 

We should stop.  We should ALL stop.  But we don't.

Maybe next year when I can afford a Prius.................

Bend over, guys.  Kiss your backside goodbye.  I think it is no longer a matter of JUST the economy however catastrophic it may seem.  I think we have sold out our environment while we were only focused on money. 

Do whatever the H--- you want with whatever system, leader, currency, technology you want.  It's too late.  The biosphere has degraded too far for any of that. 

I really hope not but...................................I think we may be done. 

John Edward Mercier
#10 Posted : Friday, September 26, 2008 3:43:08 PM
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Not done... but about to be thrown into reality whether we like it or not.

There is hope that the bailout fails.

Though I don't want the poor to suffer more than they already are...

This crisis should clear the vision of those of us considered more well off.

jd
#11 Posted : Friday, September 26, 2008 5:50:46 PM
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Sometimes the state of the environment and our government's response is so depressing, it gets to me.  I apologize.  There is the very real possibility that we'll make the necessary adjustments and continue to live on the planet as the spoiled species we are.  I just wonder about the time. 

For instance, some guy at MIT has simplified the production of Hydrogen.  Bloody genius.  It is now possible to have cars, keep the infrastructure, carry on as before and consume like pigs - WITHOUT polluting.  Does it get any better? 

Think this guy has a chance?  I have my doubts. 

And it is that bleak perspective that occasionally has me act and speak darkly.  Again - sorry. 

In my more optimistic moods, I think we may make it. Call it a Disneyesque faith  but I feel it sometimes.  And whatever blips, dips and rips in the economy won't - in the longer term - make much of a difference.  People will - for as long as they can - grow and trade food and shelter.  Likely many of them will still couple and make babies.  Given half a chance, we will make it. 

I hope.   
davisonh
#12 Posted : Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:55:59 PM
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Heres a wild idea that actually might just work the way intended,if our govt had the pair to do it.Makes one realize just how big these companies really got..
 Pretty bizarre, but it almost makes sense.
 I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG. 
   
Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to
America in a We Deserve It Dividend. 
   
To make the math simple, let's assume there are
 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+. 
   
Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up.. 
   
So divide 200 million adults 18+  into $85 billon that
 equals $425,000.00. 
   
My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a 
We Deserve It Dividend. 
   
Of course, it would NOT be tax free. 
So let's assume a tax rate of 30%. 
   
Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes. 
That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam. 
   
But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. 
A husband and wife has $595,000.00. 
   
What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family? 
Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved. 
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads 
Put away money for college - it'll be there 
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs. 
Buy a new car - create jobs 
Invest in the market - capital drives growth 
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care
 improves 
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else 
   
Remember this is for every adult U.S. Citizen 18+  including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces. 
   
If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really
 do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( "vote buy" ) economic incentive that is being proposed by
 one of our candidates for President. 
   
If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's
 bail out every adult U.S. Citizen 18+! 
   
As for AIG - liquidate it. 
Sell off its parts. 
Let American General go back to being American General. 
Sell off the real estate. 
Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up. 
Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.
Sure it's a crazy idea that can "never work."
   
But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party! 
   
How do you spell Economic Boom? 
   
I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the
 $85 Billion 
We Deserve a Dividend more than the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC. 
   
And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam. 
   
Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest. 
 
Birk T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy & Citizen of the
 Republic
 
PS:  Feel free to pass this along to your pals as it's
 either good for a laugh or a tear or a very sobering thought on how to best use $85 Billion!
John Edward Mercier
#13 Posted : Sunday, September 28, 2008 2:04:25 PM
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First, AIG was bridge loan... not a bailout. And the FED got the best of that deal.

Second, the math is wrong.

$85B divide by 200M is $425 USD.

davisonh
#14 Posted : Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:52:55 PM
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lol,yes it is..was a joke I recieved froma friend of mine so I did'nt bother to do the math..sorry.
cmate
#15 Posted : Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:59:04 AM
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I have to tell you, jokes aside, your money is "not worth nothing" it's actually worth 50% of what it was last week. Date: 10/10/08 No, it's not funny anymore!
John Edward Mercier
#16 Posted : Saturday, October 11, 2008 5:01:26 PM
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In what reference...

Recently the USD has been on an upward tear.

davisonh
#17 Posted : Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:29:39 AM
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Against what JEM? All currencies globally are losing value.We just happen to be the ones starting it all..
Neene
#18 Posted : Friday, May 08, 2009 4:29:11 AM
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The government had the brilliant idea of turning the U.S. into a service nation... nobody will get dirty doing any real work. Shipping jobs out to countries where the labor is so much cheaper will enable companies to make more profits and free up people to do more important, cleaner work.....

It didn't work that way. Technology jobs did not show up to replace the jobs lost and those jobs are what enabled people to pay for products. Take away those jobs and you take away America's ability to pay for the products that they want to import back into the country. Sure hope the countries they exported the jobs to can afford to buy the products they are making because unemployed Americans can't.

Be willing to work, put your money in real things that you can use, and fasten your seatbelt and get ready for a bumpy ride........

 

MC
#19 Posted : Friday, May 08, 2009 7:02:14 AM
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Others are, IMO anyway, right.  We "got out" of this one-- that is to say, dodged the bullet, forstalled the crisis.  Whew.  Big sigh of relief. 

Keep living like you're scared; put the difference toward covering your backsides next time.  Get together with some people you actually trust and get yourselves a patch you can homestead.  Practice the skills.  Figure out who's going to do what, and how.  Find the gaps in your skills and knowledge, and figure out how to fill them. 

Get where you want to be.  Learn to do without the car, or with a lot less of it anyway. 

Because, yes, we've forstalled the crisis.  We're going to be able to go on a while longer, enjoying our stupid selfish mindless profligacy-- which became so deeply enculturated so quickly that, in three generations' time, most of us don't even realize how wasteful we're being.

And we're going to fall all the harder when we finally really do fall. 

The Native American "prophets" make me want to puke.  ALL "end-times" prophets make me want to puke.  I still think Mary Summer Rain is One Bitter Indian (Copyright) and Sun Bear is (or was) probably running some kind of extortionist cult.

Common sense also tells me they're probably right.  We've had one wake-up call after another-- and still we smack the old snooze button and go back to our subdivision dreams.  Who can blame us-- it's *nice*.  Waking up *hurts*.  In my situation, no matter how awake I am, I still have to choose between throwing away my life partner and the father of my kids or taking the process of change at a typical suburbanite's pace.  Waking up *hurts*.      

But the intelligent answer to the rhetorical question is still, "Anyone with sense enough to try putting two and two together." 

I don't think we're in irreversible decline yet.  We are an adaptible and resourceful bunch.  But we will be if we don't cut the crap. 

At what point do we cross the line???  We don't know.  Good reason to start stepping careful.   

Pat Miketinac
#20 Posted : Saturday, May 09, 2009 3:06:58 AM
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First of all, there is enough gold for a gold standard, but it would need to be adjusted to thousands of dollars per ounce. It is more likely that commodities such as other metals will also be used for money as paper money becomes worthless due to the flood of fiat money created by the privately owned Federal Reserve. This is the root cause of our economic problems, because so much fiat money was used to bid up prices to unsustainable levels. Now the Keynesian economists think more of the same will fix everything. Prices will probably go back up before long, but not value so much. For a more in depth explanation, visit lewrockwell.com and mises.org. 

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