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Starting to Talk About Population Options
Here by the Owl
#21 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 4:33:44 AM
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HockeyFan wrote:
I'm against urban sprawl.

I agree but how do we regulate it? Is an acreage limit the answer? If you own under 20 acres you don"t count as an agricultural enterprise so you don't "need the land"?

 


mrgreenjeans
#22 Posted : Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:49:46 AM
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ohh i don't think you need to get all wild about how to reduce the population .it will make its own correction and sooner then later. it will be famine or disease or war over resources but there will be a correction. my big concern is what will happen afterwards. there is always tyrants out there looking to step up to lead for there own glory and usually to the common mans detriment. chaos and fear are there tools.

hobbyfarmer- you have no idea what your talking about. the third world is not looking to see how many kids we have here to decide how many they will have. we are not there inspirational leaders .are you delusional? your ego is blinding you. i hope that our kids come up with a way to make things better because it sure isn't coming from the 3rd world. a short story if i may . i was in Indonesia to get some shoes made ( looked all over no Americans wanted the job) so i looked around found this Indian fellow who was eager to take the job he had a small leather business. so i had the shoes made and they did pretty well so i made some leather belts and accessories to go along and they did ok. so i go there about 3 times a year and first thing he does is get a second wife and proceeds to have at least a kid a year for the first 10 years we do business. so i ask him if it bothers him about over populating an already very overpopulate place. he didn't understand what i meant . did i mean i though it was bad to have children? i explained that to many kids would run the world out of food and resources and degrade the quality of life for all. its a real catchy idea in the US.he thought a few seconds then said well if that comes to pass well at least there will be more of us then you. that's the 3rd world.

Kim
#23 Posted : Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:08:44 PM
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I was disappointed to hear that several folks had terminated their subscriptions after the "Population" article.  On the other hand, I am thrilled that Mother Earth News is beginning to talk about this issue. 

Many people do not understand that we are all part of the earth's ecosystem.  Anytime a species population grows too large, Mother Nature steps in and reduces that population via disease, starvation, etc.  We, as humans, are not immune.  The earth's unhealthy state is primarily the result of human activities.  Even with all the technology in the world, we are never going to solve many of these ills until the human population declines to a sustainable level.  Education, family planning, and erasing the stigma attached to discussing human population is start in the right direction.  Thanks Mother Earth News.

 

mrgreenjeans
#24 Posted : Wednesday, April 08, 2009 3:28:33 AM
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i was kind of blown away that people would leave over an article that they didn't like. really, its just someones opinion. how can you live in a more down to earth life and be so inflexible? its not like its some big secret we are coming up to the point where we wont be able to grow enough food to feed the worlds population. how is dropping the M.E.N. doing you any service? ahh well, what ever. it s a free country and spend your money as you see fit. as for me, do try and keep me informed about the world around me as i don't have as much time to read as id like. i also appreciate people with differing views than my current one as that's the best way to learn IMHO. keep it real /WorkArea/threadeddisc/emoticons/happy.png

Cliff
#25 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:51:30 PM
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That post above, referring to the population of the UK.  The number is dizzying.  SEVENTY MILLION!  That's about 20% of the US population living on that one tiny island.  How far Britain has come from only a couple centuries ago when it had a population of a mere million.

I am from Alaska.  This is a region probably four or five times the size of the UK with a population of about five hundred thousand.  Having lived in that real wilderness for more than a quarter of my life, I know what the wild is.  I've felt it's magic, it's allure, it's independent and even spiritual power.

I was in the UK about six years ago, and I have to say, as an Alaskan, I was devestated--almost traumatized by the experience.  I remember coming down on the 747 and looking over London below, thinking there are a hundred times as many people in that one city as there are in the whole state of Alaska.  It was so rattling to me that when the plane hit the ground, I could not stay in the city to visit as I had planned.  I went straight to Paddington Square and jumped on a train to north Wales.

The world for thousands of years had a marginally sustainable population of between 50 and 200 million.  Something has gone wrong with humanity in the last century.  We've become out of control and don't have the wisdom or will to stop what we are doing.  Having known real wilderness and compared that to what I found in Europe, I feel this in my bones.  Just as everyday I see new development at the expense of nature and feel a deep sorrow for an irreplaceable loss.

I remember at an undergraduate class on biology and ecosystems, the professor discussed how species move into an environment and develop an equilibrium.  Sometimes those species find a niche they can exploit and then their populations skyrocket.  It all seems great to the species--the sky is the limit and nothing can stop it.  Then suddenly the niche is fully exploited and the resource is gone.  When this happens, the population of the species plummets, sometimes to a new equilibrium, but often to extinction.  Mankind is on that path now.  Only the world is our environment and technology is our niche, and universally toxic pollution is our byproduct--not to mention our numbers and penchant for sweeping away pre-existing ecosystems.

Where will we stop?  Hopefully before we have become as dense as the Brits.  While there is still an ecosystem to be restored and our children might yet inherit a green world.

Cliff

 

 

crispyfarms
#26 Posted : Sunday, April 19, 2009 3:32:41 AM
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Is there a quality verses quantity thing on breeding?And if there is who sets the bar?

I mean, is it better to have one child daycare raised who can get high score on a Nintendo system and a nice office job someday or is that just equal to 4 farm kids?

mrgreenjeans
#27 Posted : Thursday, May 21, 2009 2:57:27 AM
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what are the farm kids nintendo high score?

Anonymous
#28 Posted : Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:44:31 AM
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Population increases can be reduced as women in poorer countries are educated.  This has proven to be the case in India and elsewhere.  Once women become educated they also become breadwinners and thus a change is made in the family's view of the need for more children to help with chores, grow crops, and tend to pastoral duties.  Though this is a simplfied description, it is basically how the change occurs.  As stated in the article on population, negative population growth is occuring in some European countries and other economically and educationally advanced countries may be on their way to achieving zero population growth.

There is no doubt that a better use of resources may sustain a larger population than exists, however, it would be best to make the important steps to reducing the population now.  The future appears to hold a huge opportunity for starvation and death due to the inability of poorer nations to feed their populations.  The global economy and global trade taking place is making it possible for the corporations of the world to move food and other resources from the poor countries that produce them to countries that can afford the food and other goods on such a grand scale that the people in the countries could literally work themselves to death while depleting their own resources for sustaining life.  This is not anything new, just on a grander scale than what took place during the colonial period.

weehen
#29 Posted : Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:14:09 AM
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I do see over-population as an issue.  It is such a complex one, however.

As mrgreenjeans said, the people who are conscious of avoiding adding to the burden are the very ones who should be breeding.  How very ironic! I can't see how we reverse that trend.

What concerns me more is that the resources we consume for our lifestyles are so disproportionate.  The amount of energy average American's consume is astounding.

While it is ghastly to contemplate, I think a pandemic could actually turn out to be beneficial in the long run.  At least it would distract us from bloody wars and runaway "progress" and perhaps bring our attention to more basic survival needs and the need for major change.  We simply have too many people and we don't really value life much.  We're like too many animals caged up together - they start to get aggressive and violent.  Quality has lost out to quantity.

If there were fewer humans, not only would this relieve the strain on other species, it would buy our planet and our own species some time.  Time to reconsider the way forward and slow things down, time to pick and choose what worked in the past, and reconnect with our values, our communities, our families, nature itself and hopefully learn some valuable lessons.

At times I feel a sense of despair about it all, but then I do think nature/gaia/God/whatever-you-like-to-name-it will control the population in some way.  It won't be pleasant, but it is inevitable.  We just aren't sustainable at these rates.

airikah
#30 Posted : Friday, August 14, 2009 9:27:04 PM
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Living downtown Toronto and commuting is getting more difficult at an alarming rate. The number of trains, buses, and street cars is nowhere near sufficient especially during morning and afternoon rush hour! Over the last year I have gradually had to wake up earlier and earlier in order to ensure connecting with the right train and bus route not to mention find enough room to even stand up shoulder to shoulder with hundreds other fellow commuters. I dread how things will be in another year if the TTC doesn't invest in more vehicles in the near future.


allenwrench
#31 Posted : Sunday, September 27, 2009 4:12:05 PM
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 "There's are a lot of problems and no easy solution..."

 

Yes, that is how it is. Was surprised to see a few readers of ME cancel their subscriptions due to such short sided awareness of what faces mankind.

If the world was a perfect entity, no, the gov should not dictate pop control...but we are far from perfect.

Our future existence on this planet will demand some form of pop control, but I think nature will take care of that problem in the not so distant future.

The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are pretending this problem does not exist. We can only blame ourselves, for it is just how we have built our world over the years....too many people, living outside of natures intended balance and not an infinite supply of energy to fuel all our demands.

It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But seven billion people can't burn the trees! Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it today when it comes to their energy demands.

And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption

Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism.

And what does all that consumerism lead to?

It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream'

You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all the needs the people crave.

The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are depleted.

Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go up...fueled by spending of the consumer.

It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get away from.

Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it comes to durable goods.

All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW

We can see we have created a time bomb. Even the highest level brainiac economists can't fix what ails us. Our whole system is based on an unsustainable model that will eventually collapse no matter how much money that is printed up by the Fed. (...they don't even need to print money nowadays, all that needs to be done to create billions is to magnetize a silicon chip!)

Now maybe if our energy supply was stable and affordable and Peak Oil was not in our future and global warming was not an issue, things would be different and we could keep on consuming and expanding ad infinitum as our world overpopulates itself.

But...IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE TO DO A 180...Without compulsive spending and conspicuous consumption funded by unaffordable debt, we would fail as a country.

You ever hear the saying...'I got the tiger by the tail and can't let go?' That is how it has developed in the US of A.

Lets say everyone becomes voluntary simplicity and frugal squirrel devotees. We recycle, reuse, repair and just say no to buying more crap. If we stop buying all the stuff that America imports from China - who keeps the billion plus people in China from starving, so they do not go back to old ways of trying to take over the world?

And on a more local level, if the consumer stops consuming even US goods, the US companies go bust, everyone loses their jobs and his or her retirement funds will collapse.

What about growing a a garden...nothing wrong with that?  Lets say everyone starts growing 'victory gardens' in the backyard as food has become unaffordable. So some of the few farmers left in the US go bust cause their food just rots on the shelves unsold. Now there is less food being produced and at even a higher cost to those that can afford it the least.

What about more taxes?

Tax the little guy so DC can pay for their compulsive spending disease. More taxes = less for us to compulsively spend 'trying' to buy happiness = lower earnings for the greedy corporations = raise hell with the DOW = less cap gains tax income for the gov to squander = everyone's retirement funds sink lower and lower = even less compulsive spending since everyone is poorer.

Back in the day, (prairie and turn of the century) homesteaders were more of a self sufficient nature. Some raised cows and produced milk. If they had excess milk they made butter and cheese out of it. They may have traded the excess with their neighbors that had a bumper crop of potatoes and carrots. And others specialized in poultry and eggs and traded or sold their output with the farmer's making honey or maple syrup...and some did it all.

Sure, few were people were 100% self sufficient. They always looked to the railroad to bring in seed or other things. But they possessed a certain ability to survive that is lost within the society nowadays....a society that is obsessed with downloading the perfect ring-tone or fondling their electronic communication device in the sweaty little palms as they dream about what to buy next in the hopes of satisfying inner fulfillment with outer possessions.

Most of us have lost that skill of self sufficiency and we have shifted gears to be dependent on gov and a few other such as farmers or oil producers or China to take care of the whole pop of the US. The problem is, it is very hard to go back without causing a lot of pain. (Actually a lot of deaths)

Hell, the impotent people of modern day and age can't even make pancakes or peanut butter sandwiches and have to buy them ready made in the store...it's really scary.

 


Rufus Cracklecorn
#32 Posted : Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:03:51 PM
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Robot babies

My solution is to invent robot babies so people can live with the illusion they are breeding. The next generation will be only 90 to 95 % of what is currently the mass of overstock we have now. These robot babies will grow up and obviously not breed.

RedHoopWoman
#33 Posted : Friday, June 18, 2010 8:02:51 PM
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I too am surprised at the number of subscribers who canceled after the article about population,it's one of those huge issues that no one seems to want to talk about because it brings to mind extreme issues such as abortion,ethnic cleansing and China's one child policy,while these are all very contentious issues and I don't blame anyone for thier strong feelings about them,we don't have to go into all these extremes to discuss and acknowledge that there is a human population problem WORLDWIDE,not just us,not just in China and India but all over and I don't think it's right to say that here in the US or in the UK that we have any more right to reproduce ourselves than some poor woman in India or Korea,what makes us so special?

We have a huge population here in the US and we use a massive amount of resources yet it seems to be encouraged for people to have large families,I think even just the existence of fertility clinics is a sad statement that we are all too in love with ourselves.

I have one Daughter and it's been an incredible experience,I wouldn't have minded having another child but I feel obligated,with the state of the world and it's population to only engender one child and give that child everything that I can so she can have a good life and grow up to make good choices.

I won't judge anyone for making the choices that they make but I feel it's my responsibility to make the choice that I have though I wish more people would really and truly think about it before they conceive yet another child,regardless of income,location,etc...

 

maluthor
#34 Posted : Friday, September 16, 2011 7:31:49 PM
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In The World Big Question Of Increase Population Growth Is Very Fast  . and now Chin and India the population growth rapidly increase. When that problem create a more problem in Economical condition of the the Country. I think that government  are also taking liggle step to stop about this growth. I think that problem main reason is ilitarature people.Do not have a good knowdlege about sex related Question. child mearriage etc. That Simple solution is more people are become educated and understand about the benifeet of one child.
Robert Glynn
#35 Posted : Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:19:40 PM
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Megan Phelps
#36 Posted : Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:19:40 PM
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Population is an environmental issue where people tend to have very definite, and often very different, opinions.We've posted a new article about population issues here. Now we'd like to hear what you have to say! Post your thoughts here and weigh in on this important topic.

 

 

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