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Keep Out or Come On In? Options
#1 Posted : Friday, April 25, 2008 1:30:00 AM
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Well I suppose I'll put my 2 cents in(as usual,lol).Its kind of an unwritten rule up here where I live that 'If I know you and I dont have a problem with you,then you can pass as you please.If a hunter bags game on your property I think it's  proper etiquette to share a small bit of  quarry with the landowner as a thank you for letting the hunter use  the landowners land for his lucky catch. I know not all think this,but IMO I think its the right thing to do.My worry is if someone gets hurt on my property,that makes me liable for payment of his injuries unless I post a 'pass at your own risk' sign.
#2 Posted : Friday, April 25, 2008 1:42:08 AM
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Well, I can see both sides. When I was a kid there wasnt anywhere I couldnt go. We would hike just about anywhere we wanted. If there was a sign, we'd stop and ask(and usuallyget)permision.

Today is different. We have been surounded by transplanted city folks who do not want anyone on their property. However, These same people feel its perfectly all right to do as they please on everyone elses land. I have a neihbor who helps himself to my berry patch, my pear trees and likes to walk in my woods because there are actually navigatble trails. But If I ASK: NOPE, SORRY

It makes it hard when I'm running my huntin dogs or just wanna go walk-about.

But to answer your question with my opinion. I guess if you own it you get to make the rules. And thats the way it aught to be.


#3 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2008 2:29:42 PM
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   You may have opened a can of worms with this, so should be fun to discuss. My property isn't posted, however I want to know who's there and reserve the right not to allow all to come. For me its a divide between being the steward and payer of this land and allowing other to enjoy the woods. Landowners in the Adirondack Park in N.Y. face many restictions from the State, plus high taxes, good paying jobs are few and far between, we as landowners bare the brunt of having to pay high taxs and yet live with these restrictions, would seem just to ease up on taxes, would making taking the bitter pill being told what you can or can't do a little easier. I like most who were brought up here like to fish and hunt, to do so I have to buy a licience, why not hikers and day users? The money could then be used to offset land taxes, by allowing vistors to use my land would allow my land taxes to be cut, if on the other hand I choose not to then I get no tax cut. Anyone who comes here and doesn't like the color of my house ect. does not have any right to distroy or deface my hard work, and should be put in jail. We have same problem over here as davison, weekend people post a 1/4 acre then want to walk your land, has to be two way street. One last thought for now, best way to protect your land, is by allowing your nieghbors to use it for hunting, fishing, ect.


#4 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 2:50:26 PM
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I have to side with land owners.  First of all, if trespassers are bitten by dogs and harmed by animals on the property, or fall and break a leg, you can bet they'll file a hefty lawsuit against the owner.  So the owner most certainly should be able to have a sign telling them to keep out, and harass (get them off the property) them if they violate the sign.

In a perfect world (without lawyers), I could see the notion of "just passing through" and no harm no worries.  But this isn't a perfect world and I think the property owner has to have his rights protected and respected.


Earth Home Project:


#5 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 6:27:59 PM
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In N.Y. there is a law protecting landowners who open their land for public use from lawsuits if someone is hurt, however if for example I created a hazard and didn't properly warn I could be on my own, also have to bear in mind that jury trials could be a whole different deal, thats why I want to know who is on my land both for their saftey and mine. I don't have to post my land to keep undesirbles out I can give notice to leave, if they don't I can simply call 911 and have them removed and arrested, should they choose to leave but come back later, I just call sheriffs dept. and inform them that so and so was asked to leave but has choosen to come back, at that point I can file charges for trespass. Thankfully in the 35 years we have lived here have never had a bit of trouble, am aware that it could change with more and more people coming to our area. I would advise against confortation much wiser to let the law people handle it.


John Edward Mercier
#6 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 7:33:30 PM
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The author is trying to cover their criminally negligent act of destroying someone else's property (signs) with some emotional plea to hiking? What's next fences?


#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:26:24 PM
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I personally dislike fences and signs.  They're not nature.  They're ugly.  They can't be made beautiful.  They're ugly.  That said, I realize that I need a fence around my property to keep out dogs, and to keep mine in.  Neighbors will shoot strange dogs (to protect their chickens), and so I have to keep my dogs in for their own protection.

The thought of someone taking it upon themselves to violate my rights by destroying a sign I put up or a fence, makes my blood run cold.  If I catch anyone doing this, believe me; I will be the living crap out of them, and then I will prosecute them to the greatest extent that I can

And if they have the gall to try to sue me for assault, I'll say that I feared for my life and no jury will dare side against me.


Earth Home Project:


#8 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:15:31 AM
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Death penalty for trespassing? Seems abit harsh. For the first offense I think I'd vote for just puttem in the stocks and throw rotten veggies atem. The second time you burnem at the stake. After that?? 

I worked with a nutcase who shot at a hunter who accidently got on his land(no it wasnt posted). Last I knew he was still in jail.


#9 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:13:57 AM
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I would have to disagree with the article's author on a number of points. First, he talks about a private driveway  road passing through a number of properties. Legally,  I'd have to assume that represents an easement to pass. After all, private property which is landlocked cannot be sold legally in my state (Oregon). An easement is required across or through any private land that the road crosses. If an easement exists, then one could assume that pedestrian traffic can not be excluded from using the easement (even if posted). In the case where a driveway or road access goes exclusively to one property and ends there then the owner of that property can and does have the right to exclude others from entering or remaining on their private property by the posting of signs. Even in the absence of posted signs, verbal notice that the parcel is private and the intruder is tresspassing is sufficient to exclude the tresspasser and to require them to vacate the property.

Legal definition of "Tresspasser"- One who intentionally and without consent enters another's property.

"Criminal Tresspass"- Entering or remaining upon or in any land, structure, or transportation device when such premises or property are posted in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

Here is a file of a no tresspass sign that uses all of the legally correct wording and also has referrences to the US Code Titles and sections where the law is stated.  This can be useful for making clear and legal postings which can even exclude public officials:



Any person entering this private property must hold contract with owner and/or tenant which grants ingress with indemnity.




This puts you on NOTICE that the owner and/or tenant of this property requires that all Public/Corporate Officials, their Agents, Employees, or Franchises thereof abide by provisions of the Supreme Law of the Land: The Constitution for the united states of America.

Trespasser - One who intentionally and without consent enters another’s property.

Criminal Trespass - Entering or remaining upon or in any land, structure, or transportation device when such premises or property are posted in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

Acts done under color of any law carry the same restrictions as any other criminal trespass . USC Title 42, Sec. 1983

BE WARNED!! USC Title 18, Sec. 3109 STRICTLY ENFORCED!! (The owner of this property may use force to remove those who trespass!!!)

The penalty for Trespass is a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than ten years, or both. USC Title 18, Sec. 241 & 242.

Signature _______________________________________





Mare Owner
#10 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:57:59 AM
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The two articles have very different tones.  One sounds very detached, passing on factual info, and is shorter. The other is more heart felt, compelling, and convincing.  Hard to compare them!

We are farmers, raising both crops and livestock, have state land on our south boundary, and a historical site just down the road.

We don't have a single 'No Trespassing' sign, we don't need one.  Most people have the common sense, and common courtesy, to be respectful of our property.  We have a handful of new people drive in each year as deer season approaches, asking to hunt, or to cross our property to hunt in the state land.  People visit our gravel pit to search of agates, and park on the side of the road to admire the foals when they arrive.

I think one of the reasons we don't have problems, is because people know (generally) that there is a difference between private property and public property.  Also, they are greeted by dogs, or by us, when they do drive in, or visit our gravel pit.  Neighbors watch out for eachother, and know if a vehicle is a local person, or an unknown traveler.

I don't want our livestock's health jeapordized by someone deciding to feed them whatever they are carrying while out walking.  It could be dangerous for a hiker to decide to cut through our cattle pasture while we have the bull here for breeding.  The pastures are partially wooded, and are several acres in size; a person entering a gate on one end would not know there is a herd inside.

A person trespassing can be risking their own health and safety, and also the health and safety of the property owners and livestock living there.  It doesn't take much time or effort to meet your neighbors, or the owners on the route you'd like to walk.  Plan ahead a bit, and take the time to ask permission.  Even when the owners say No, they will respect and appreciate your asking.

Moose Hollow FArm
#11 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:54:06 PM
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One thing land owners need to be aware of is that if they post their land as no hunting, that means they can not hunt there either. 

I have over 13 acres of forest in NH and people hunt out there regularly.  I've never had a problem.  I'm have recently applied to put my forest in to what's called current use.  That means I have no intention of developing it and it will remain as it is currently used.  This will lower the tax basis significantly.  There is an option to check off a box that says that hikers, hunters, fishermen, sightseers can use my land as well, this brings down the tax basis even lower.  I gladly checked the box.  I did not however check the box that says that the public could use their motorized toys there.  In other words, I don't want to invite crowds of people to come through with their ATVs or dirtbikes.  If someone I knew asked politely, and I thought that they would be responsible it would be different.  If people treat the land responsibly, I have no problem with them coming through.  If they trash the land or are behaving recklessly, well, that's when a shotgun comes in handy. 
#12 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:59:27 PM
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People of Mother Earth NEWS..........we Need your help...

here's what happened...  and i wrote an Article about it on another website where i am well known
as a good samaritan, digital artist/ organic farmer..and fisherman. After they saw the photo they were all willing to make a contribution but our expenses for medical treatment are still on-going.

It's about our wonderful dog Star....whos not just our dog perse but our surrogate child because we are unable to have children of our own.  We had just purchased a 100' hoophouse style greenhouse
on a friday...then because all the building/construction materials were laying on our little side road
waiting to be relocated down to the back field....i couldn't throw Stars 6 inch rubber ring down that direction for fear of her getting hurt by running into some timbers and pipes.

So i decided to throw it along the front of the house thinking it was a much safer direction for her to run and fetch it, which is what she lives for. Having just moved around 1000 pots and planting trays
i was ready to call it a day and head in...but thought she's been so good today i have to reward her
and gave it an over hand roll toss and she normally chases it down very quickly with in 20 yards.

Well i threw it and she went running and then i heard the most awful sound from her as she continously began yelping i'm hurt bad...i'm hurt bad...so i went running to see what happened as fast as i can. What i saw...i could not really comprehend until i got closer....because something was hanging from her chest and i had no idea what it could be..and  she was just as confused as well.

She had run into our boundary marker stake thats kind of on the neighbors side of the bushes
right out in the middle of the lawn at around 35 miles an hour being an extremely fast dog,
it's an out of site out of mind area that seems like the neighbors property but its on the line.

STAKE -> http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/STAR/safetyHazzard.jpg
It was the perfect height and it had a narley sharp edge that had peeled all the skin off of her chest leaving a ten inch piece 2.5 inches wide flap hanging down to the ground. When i saw it i almost went into shock because i could now see her insides and she was bleeding profusely. i gathered her up and ran her into the house and grabbed a white cloth blanket and made sort of a wrap around bandage to apply pressure and to try and stop the bleeding.

Since my wife was not home and my grand caravan was desperately in need of a brake line repair i had to call 911 for assistance so they dispatched a cruiser followed by the dog officer because i couldnt drive my vehicle and hold her together simultaneously...  then my wife Becki pulls up in the driveway seeing me sitting on the front steps all teary eyed thinking i had just given our sweet dog a bath.....so i motioned to her  come here quick!  real  quick! since she couldn't hear me yet.

I said:  honey Star is hurt BAD  and we have to go RIGHT NOW !!!! so off we went hoping to intercept the policeman on his way which we did and then proceeded to follow the dog officer's vehicle to the nearest vet's clinic. They took a look and sent us to a dog hospital because the injury was going to require anestesia and an overnight stay with someone there 24/7 so off we go again but now shes all wrapped in protective bandages ....DRIVING  around 80 mph with the hazard lights on.........
we get pulled over by the police and we are motioning to the officer....hurry up over here will ya...
he was taking his sweet time....
and we said,  LOOK this is an emergency and our dog is bleeding to death and we have to go NOW !   so  he  said  sure  and  be careful...so off we went...again.

well....we have taken her to the same Hospital for two surgeries now to close the wound but the first one failed...the second one did much better but is starting to open up again so we are taking her back again tonight  (april 30th) for yet another surgery that being number #3 . They cost around $900 dollars each for the first two and maybe we'll have half of that cost for this one but it's hard to estimate it .....until it's all done.

heres'a photo of what that darn stake did to her http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/STAR/surgery.jpg
and her sweet self  http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/STAR/STAR-zy.jpg

Ok,  now to the legal aspects....first of all,  homeowners insurance does not cover it...
and secondly the stake is not owned by myself ,the neighbor ,or even the town as i asked
at town hall....the surveyor has yet to return my call but i want to know more about the law that says... A.  you cannot remove them or risk having a new survey done at your expense and nobody seems to be liable for the damages.

So we are really stuck between a rock and hard place on this
whole nightmare because i am severely handicapped and can barely work the farm and we have just been hanging on by the skin of our teeth with one income as it is.

we had to make a decision....do we pay the mortgage on time or do we save our most precious dog... and you already know the answer...to that question. We haven't even owned the farm for a year yet and because of this awful tradgedy we are facing loosing it. We have waited our whole lives to finally get here at age 55, so roughly 35 years it took us and now we are at a high risk of loosing it already because trying to refinance with today's economy and with the property values
down by 25% makes it a difficult thing to do.

 If anyone would like to make a paypal contibution
it would be greatly appreciated.
Or if you have some similar experience or specific knowledge that would help our situation we'd love to hear from you.

oh and before you think to yourself.... oh this sounds like a scam, i can assure you it is not
but to prove it...i'll provide you two links to another website where a small fundraiser is happening
in response to this terrible event...  the first link is the  "lets help out guys"
and the second one is the my origional post that i named "skinned alive" ....
by the way -my nickname there is RAVEN  because i admire the bird for it's intelligence mainly.



the other reason i wrote about this tragedy to my dog Star is this...   I intend to start a National campaign to stop the practice of banging metal pipes into the ground with a sledge hammer to mark a property's boundry line and then wrap it with highly visable plastic tape.

They are a menace and i consider it to be outdated and barbaric and i want a law passed called "STARS law" that says a homeowner or property owner can remove them without penalty and replace them with something considerably safer. Also i have written about this because so many people have the same dangerous situation on their place and need to know....about it.

AND by the way, my neighbor came by and gave me a ration of crap for removiing it and couldn't have cared less about my dog getting hurt which was almost technically on his side of the property............... I'll now have nothing to do with the creep forever.

you can write to me  Craig   aka Raven 
at:  countryraven@gmail.com

paypal  to the same  email address  for those that
would like to make a donation to help out Little Star
and to help us keep the farm ... 
thanks for reading this story.  B & C

John Edward Mercier
#13 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:55:16 PM
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In NH, you only have to post against pedestrian use... all other uses, including walking my dog on your property, require landowner permission. Motorized users are required to carry written landowner permission unless the property is part of the public trail system administered by the Bureau of Trails, and covered under a special $2 million dollar landowner liability policy that covers the landowner against lawsuits involving motorized use.

From the NH Fish and Game website...

4. Private, County and Municipal lands: 80% of New Hampshire's forestland is privately owned. Generally speaking, most private lands -- especially larger tracts -- remain open to hunters across New Hampshire, unless otherwise posted against hunting. New Hampshire Fish and Game highly recommends that each hunter personally contact landowners whenever possible and seek permission to hunt. Frequently, even land posted to hunting can be accessed by contacting the owner prior to hunting. Please respect all landowners wishing to keep their lands posted. Many landowners have sought reduced tax burdens by placing their land under current land use tax assessment. One category of current use tax reduction requires the landowner to keep his land open to public use, including hunting, in order to get an additional 20% tax reduction. This is a real incentive to keep private land open to hunting. Check with town officials for Current Use tax land.


#14 Posted : Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:32:41 AM
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Raven, Are you saying that you want all the MEN community to send you money via pay-pal? And this would save the farm.? And pay for a much needed operation for little Timmy or is it Lassie? HHHHMMMM. I"ll have to think about that one.
#15 Posted : Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:49:35 PM
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re: spark123y
quote: Raven, Are you saying that you want all the MEN community to send you money via pay-pal? And this would save the farm.? And pay for a much needed operation for little Timmy or is it Lassie? HHHHMMMM. I"ll have to think about that one.
I'm saying that these stakes are everywhere and that they can impale a child or a neighbor's dog or your own.  Since they are property line boundary Markers they belong to or are owned by  each of the property owners .....whose property that they divide by 50%.

This makes someone liable for injuries  sustained by them for at least 50% of the damages they may cause as a lawyer just now told me over the phone. But thats a real tough thing to prove in a court of law and it could take a long time to ever see a settlement i'm sure. The two surgeries have already just been performed and my Dog Star is resting comfortably with a huge bandage on her torso and a plastic neck collar to keep her from undoing the surgeons work.

 It has nothing to do with  Tmmie or Lassie and i don't appreciate your sarcasum at all.

i am bringing it to everyones attention to hopefully prevent anyone else from having to experience this nightmare at their place of residence.

The Surveyor just told me that normally they are either real tall
or are a pillar of stone with a hole drilled in the top to affix a plastic marker or they are pounded down flat so they won't be hit by a lawnmower blade which might knock off and shoot a chunk of shrapnel off of the top of the metal pipe.

 These metal pipes are around by the thousands wherever it has been the custom to use this method specifically to mark a property's boundary line. This particular marker was out of the ground only 8 inches or so (20 years old) was all rusty and to a dog with tunnel vison -> invisable.

The medical expenses we have incurred are well over $2000.00 dollars and are climbing.

In the interest of sharing my story i thought perhaps someone else had some legal experience with them on their placement or subsequent removal and or the penalties for doing so and could advise me.

This has been a tremendous unexpected set back for us financially and i sought some support from the Mother EARTH community at large. Some people are dog lovers or dog people and can sympathize with our situation and may possibly lend a hand and if not,  perhaps a kind word or two.

Perhaps during a future conversation with a neighbor  or relative this story can be repeated and hopefully save someone from the Horror show  that i've been dealing with....for the last 2 weeks and it has been hugely upsetting for me and my wife not to mention our poor dog.

I am a really STRONG  and tough individual that can move things most people cannot (boulders) and i am as tough as nails but this experience really knocked me for a loop... enough so,   that i felt it was important to share .

Because we were already in a sub prime Mortgage with way to high a monthly payment and not much chance to refinance i had hoped to at least seek enough donations to offset our losses to avoid any chance of getting into a foreclosure situation. Presently we have received aprox. 25%.

If asking for a donation is prohibited here or is deemed to be inappropriate i apologize, but i want to keep my farm that i am working so hard to get started and this tragedy is ruining our dream of becoming self sufficient market gardeners.     and with that explanation ......  i'll close here...

 Raven, Becki and Star 

#16 Posted : Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:49:45 AM
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yesterday  i went on the Jay Severin 9.69 wtkk radio talk show and talked about how many of
us have these rusty boundary marker pipes on our properties that are ready to impale your dog,your neighbor's dog or even a human being and asked  the largest listening audience out there to go out and do an inspection on  how dangerous they are at their place. He replied that he had them all over  his property and that he had wondered how easy it would be to be impaled by them.
#17 Posted : Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:02:51 PM
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The first thing we did when we bought our property is to locate the stakes.  All had been covered with dirt so it was no big deal, but we were prepared to drive them into the ground with a hammer if exposed.  From what I can tell, this is what is done.  Rather than remove the stake, just drive it into the ground.  If anyone wants to locate a property line, this is what metal detectors are for.


Earth Home Project:


#18 Posted : Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:55:24 PM
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Boy this article irked me to no end!  Of course the author doesn't mind trespassers, he's only got three acres!  Nobody's got  use for that!

It cost me over $6000/yr. just in taxes to be able to keep my 108 acres.  That's not counting the endless time, hard labor, and money to keep it healthy!  We do without a lot for this privledge!

People around here buy a little place on half an acre and have four wheelers, snowmobiles, and a couple horses tied behind the garage and expect me and the other landowners to finance their play ground?

Maybe the author wouldn't be able to afford to drink so much and actually have to work full time if he had what he really wanted but to get drunk and destroy other peoples property in the name of beauty is so WRONG!

Reminds me of the story about the big, young lawyer who shot a deer and trespassed to get it.  The aging landowner didn't appreciate it and the lawyer started with his rhetoric.  The old timer insisted they handle it with a local tradition;  they exchange their best three shots on each other and the winner wins.  The young lawyer (built like a brickhouse from spending more time in a gym than a courtroom) looked down on the frail old man and agreed.  The old man says "I'll go first" and lets go with a hard kick between the lawyers legs.  The lawyer bends over in pain and the old man comes up with a hard knee into the mans face, standing him back up.  The old guy quickly follows that with a right hook to an already broken nose and drives the guy over onto his back.  The lawyer slowly gets up and pulls himself together, looks down at the old man with a wry smile on his face and says, "Now it's my turn."  The old man says, "Naw, I quit, go get your deer."

Those who live in glass cabins.......

#19 Posted : Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:05:24 AM
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Posts: 134,494

And for Raven who is hyjacking this post for her own concerns, I'm very sorry for your loss but it WAS just a dog and freak things happen.  Get over it already.


In my defense- story time:

I recall the time I jumped in my truck and drove out back to move the pastured turkey pens.  It was only two weeks to Thanksgiving. I crested the small knoll and I'll never forgot what I saw, a mix of fully grown, beautiful white turkeys covered with bright crimson blood scattered over the landscape.  Two dogs had "dug" holes through the brand new chickenwire cages and chewed freely on fifty of our turkeys.  I'm glad I was in the truck as one of the dogs looked at me with blood and feathers hanging from his jowls and growled a very primordal growl.  I put 'er in reverse and retrieved my 22 magnum.  When I returned to the site, one dog was chasing bloody turkeys around the field and ran off as I later learned I buried one in his hip.  The other was still in a cage and was an easy mark.  His feet were shredded from digging through the cage.

Another required trip to the barn to fetch a hatchet to finish off the ninteen turkeys which were gashed, maimed, crippled or otherwise raped.  There was sweat and tears and screams as each head came off. 

Word got out and a lady shows up in the driveway.  As an empathetic lover of animals, tears run down my face as I fend off her blows and insults.  I apologize for having to kill her dog.  I'm later mad at myself for apologizing after rerunning what had happened and how I still had to call fifty customers and tell them they couldn't have the turkey they so much look forward to every year.

With all my emotional, time, and financial cost, I let her think I was the bad guy.  Now THAT, I'm sorry for.

I won't bore you with the bitter winter when a "bug" got in the barn and took twenty calves and three of my draft horses.  Then there was the three legged baby goat, the chicken named Lucky, and the time the horses ran off with the hay mower, blade down.  Or even now as my wife waits for scheduling at the hospital and my daughter........

Guess what?  Life is going on. GET OVER IT or do like the hiker, have a few cocktails and go wander around aimlessly pulling property stakes.

silverado coyote
#20 Posted : Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:02:36 AM
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Posts: 134,494
what a thought provoking article. it raises questions about the nature of private property and it's sacrosanct place in our thinking. our first reaction would be that if someone else's private road can be shared without permission, what's next? the slippery slope argument is the one most employed.a couple have noted the difference between allowing motorized vehicles and walking.some draw the line at bicycles. it's interesting that , in some states, walkers rights are codified and tax breaks given to those who allow walkers. it could be argued that we don't really have private property because of house and land taxes. if we don't pay rent to the gov't , even on a paid off property, they take it back. so who really owns it?
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